KT Energy Changes

[Flipper]

Players, Managers, Tycoonians, lend me your ears. The hour is nigh and I am in need of your assistance in a matter of personal importance that I believe will benefit us all.

 

Recently, I contacted our dear Mike about possibly removing KT energy, injuries, and cuts, essentially making it the same as grappling currently, but with striking skills instead of struggle cuddles. I thoroughly believe that simply changing this will add new layers of utility in the KT scene for both new players and old. His response was….lukewarm.

While the response itself was less than ideal, I see the opportunity in our ability to cause change if we were to band together and show the man that we want new/improved things in our game. Even if you don’t have absolutely any care for KT or you don’t even know what it is, surely the idea that we can influence the game in small ways for the better is appealing to you. If you still aren’t convinced, I’ve prepared a list of benefits to this for new and veteran players:

 

NEW PLAYERS

• A way to get started with the striking part of the game (the fun part, let’s be real) in user run orgs at absolutely 0 risk to your fledgling MMA record or manager rank.

•  A 25 year old KT-minded creation is 10x more likely to be competitive from the jump than a 25 year old trying to be decent in MMA.

• A way to build your fighter’s background and popularity before diving into the main game (MMA).

• A risk free way to experiment with sliders, find out what does and doesn’t work and what tactics you prefer to use when you play.

• A BETTER way to finance your fighters’ clothing, gym and supplement needs without having to spam QFCs (which aren’t worth the risk at level 2, anyway.)

 

VETERAN PLAYERS

• The best possible hiddens testing. I really shouldn’t have to say more (but I will anyway).

• Sparbot utility. Keep father time at bay longer while possibly being competitive still.

• You can fight your creations without losing training sessions (multiple test fights, intermediate testing for LHK, popularity building, and more!)

• More org running opportunities and variety (if we get the hype fixed, too. Mike)

• A spot for your slow learners and dumb dumbs to go to still have careers after all the hard work you put into them.

• A secondary outlet for your veteran fighters once skill decline (or a lower skill cap) sets in since they don’t need as many points to be competitive.

 

With the success of CWC and Stepping Stone Grappling, there’s no reason that KT shouldn’t be on an even field with Grappling and be exactly the same in regards to energy, injury, and hype. If you really want KT to exist, make it the twin sister of Grappling. I thoroughly believe a relatively simple sounding change like that could go a long way to improving the game as a whole.

I leave it to you all to vote on this, deliberate in the replies, show your support/dissent and why. The worst possible outcome would be that the idea of having a say in improving or influencing the game one way or another falls on apathy and deaf ears and this post generates no or very little response. I would be satisfied just to have the discussion with you all, even if it’s to tell me that I’m wrong.

[Gonzasco]

I think i dont like the idea. Grappling doesnt involve striking and you dont get injured as much in real life. Real life: People can compete in grappling tournaments every weekend for fun or for money with low risk to serious injury. I also think this would mostly benefit the veteran managers who already dominate the high level Kickboxing rankings. People use grappling as a way to reset depops but kt has always seemed lesser than mma in-game probably due to small player base. 

[Mia Kong]

I think its a good way to broaden what we have already opens a new way to play the game and opens a fresh way to play the game and it gives the game a more fresh look cause if certain things don't change then the game becomes stale 

[Mia Kong]

33 minutes ago, Gonzasco said:

I think i dont like the idea. Grappling doesnt involve striking and you dont get injured as much in real life. Real life: People can compete in grappling tournaments every weekend for fun or for money with low risk to serious injury. I also think this would mostly benefit the veteran managers who already dominate the high level Kickboxing rankings. People use grappling as a way to reset depops but kt has always seemed lesser than mma in-game probably due to small player base. 

An I believe if you don't like it you don't have to join those types of organizations

[Flipper]

33 minutes ago, Gonzasco said:

I think i dont like the idea. Grappling doesnt involve striking and you dont get injured as much in real life. Real life: People can compete in grappling tournaments every weekend for fun or for money with low risk to serious injury. I also think this would mostly benefit the veteran managers who already dominate the high level Kickboxing rankings. People use grappling as a way to reset depops but kt has always seemed lesser than mma in-game probably due to small player base. 

In Thailand, MT kickboxers fight almost every week depending on injury. Outside of that you still see them fight once every 2-3 weeks and that’s in real life. Here we‘re playing a game where 3 months = 1 year. 1 real life week = 1 game month. More than enough time if given the real life example.

[Gonzasco]

Well i also think kt skills are more translatable to mma in-game. The very top ranked mma are mostly strikers over grapplers. You could use this as an exploit to max out your striking skills, w/ a private gym as a vet, for your new creations, then go into mma later with no damage or missed training time from energy loss. It seems like it could be a benefit for vet managers to exploit, though i get that kt is dead. 

[Flipper]

15 minutes ago, Gonzasco said:

Well i also think kt skills are more translatable to mma in-game. The very top ranked mma are mostly strikers over grapplers. You could use this as an exploit to max out your striking skills, w/ a private gym as a vet, for your new creations, then go into mma later with no damage or missed training time from energy loss. It seems like it could be a benefit for vet managers to exploit, though i get that kt is dead. 

Veteran managers are already maxing skills with no damage when they cook projects for up to a year. Changing KT allows people who want to fight to do the same and thus levels the playing field in that regard. Also it’s an easier sell to a brand new player to have their guy grapple or kickbox for 6 months than to have him sit in a gym and do nothing if they want to be competitive at the top of the game.

Edit: Plus having them start in a single discipline and transfer them to MMA actually allows the martial arts to *mix*

[Skuzbukit]

CTE

All of the striking arts cause some degree of damage, I can see why grappling is popular & I can see why the energy demands of KT would be lower than MMA, I did find it strange that grappling was no energy loss when it is arguably the second most energy demanding (wrestling at least) of all the combat arts.

And injuries in grappling absolutely exist particularly BJJ, arm breaks, spiral fractures, torn tendons, BJJ is not "gentle" just because you aren't getting struck, indeed some of those injuries are gnarly af and can be career-ending at times.

On removing damage / energy loss from Kickboxing, I'm in the no camp, I'd actually add some to the grappling side myself because losing or having a tough win should be impactful.

Here's how I would rank stuff on energy & damage.

1. MMA - arguably the toughest of the lot, most skills required, most energy required, lower CTE than pure striking due to grappling mix.

2.Grappling (Wrestling+BJJ) - right behind MMA for energy use, wrestliing lowest on damage since its about point scoring from positional dominance, while the BJJ ups the ante a bit on damage from arm breaks & some potentially nasty tendon damage from leg locks, lowest in CTE

2.Muay Thai - energy use is a bit higher than straight kickboxing, CTE a bit higher than MMA

3.Kickboxing - behind Grappling on energy use, higher than grappling for damage (Glory Rules is how I judge this) CTE a bit above Muay Thai.

4. Boxing - behind all of the above on energy use, highest in CTE damage (significantly higher than the rest)

 

I'd be okay with re-tuning the various types but not without some give & take elsewhere to make it have some logic to it.

[Gonzasco]

25 minutes ago, Beatdown said:

Veteran managers are already maxing skills with no damage when they cook projects for up to a year. 

cooking wouldnt be the same as resetting depops in kt fights while building up popularity boosts from wins with no damage and energy loss. this kind of exploit could be utilized for longer than a year, up until a fast learning project with a private gym has maxed striking stats.

[Icon73]

Since Kickboxing and Muay Thai careers have way more fights I do think reducing energy loss, injuries and cuts. It's just realistic.

[Skuzbukit]

1 minute ago, Gonzasco said:

cooking wouldnt be the same as resetting depops in kt while building up popularity boosts from wins. this kind of exploit could be utilized for longer than a year, up until a fast learning project with a private gym has maxed striking stats.

I guess this could be countered by either removing popularity altogether or by not having a single popularity pool.

i.e. Each Ruleset would have unique hype & pop values.

[Flipper]

13 minutes ago, Gonzasco said:

cooking wouldnt be the same as resetting depops in kt fights while building up popularity boosts from wins with no damage and energy loss. this kind of exploit could be utilized for longer than a year, up until a fast learning project with a private gym has maxed striking stats.

I don’t see how training fighters until they hit the skill cap is an exploit. Popularity doesn’t help anyone but org owners and isn’t even a tracked metric for fighters like Hype is. Nearly every half decent fighter hits their skill cap eventually if they don’t get sacked and retired first.

I fail to see how more fighters fighting is a bad thing.

[Alfred]

Apparently there is a problem with KT hype so that you could never really run a successful PPV KT org. I'm not quite sure what the problem is as the person who reported it doesn't play anymore. If that's the case though I'd say that needs fixing above all. 

Would like to see a good few fixes for KT overall

1) Yes, perhaps reduce the energy, cuts, injury from a KT fight at the very least. 

2) Have a separate KT QFC system.

3) Have KT results effect manager rank far less.

[Gonzasco]

17 minutes ago, Beatdown said:

I don’t see how training fighters until they hit the skill cap is an exploit.

i mean that the resetting depops by fighting kt is the potential cause for cocern/exploit. Vets don't cook their fighters until they max out because they need to fight, to stop declining skills, because fighting resets depops. Why would you risk damage and energy loss in mma on a project when you could reset depops and maximize training/minimize damage with an early kt career. If you look at top KT rankings its already filled with elite managers who i think would benefit from this. 

[Daudy]

My 2 cents is that you can already utilise grappling orgs for depops while cooking, so it doesn't change much in that sphere. Furthermore, KT still counts towards record, so if anything, using that purely as a depop machine is still strictly worse even if it was changed to no energy loss.

I understand the point that maybe this is could be more popular if the changes are made due to standup skills in general being more popular, but the lack of ground skill isn't actually a hurdle to utilising grappling for depops. You can already grapple for depops with 0 grappling skills and have basically no consequence. I also don't think the farming popularity counterpoint is particularly important either, as pop is only really useful for org owners and also not that difficult to earn already in grappling even with an MMA build (look no further than my former MMA 205er Gotan who has beaten former CWC champs with only 1 elite grappling skill).

Subsequently, I don't think any objections on those grounds hold that much water - because it's already there for people who want to do it (and yet, I don't think it's even that common amongst cooked projects apart from maybe a few in SSG).

And definitely not in regards to the suggestion to add energy penalties to grappling. Realism is one thing, but the last thing we need in this game is drawing it out and making it so fighters have even fewer training sessions in an already glacial slow process to get guys up to scratch.

 

EDIT: I think the current KT ranks holding only elite players is because it's such a stunted area of the game that so few people play (which is partially because of the above energy issues). The only people who bother are people with the resources to spend excess slots on it (and even then). Currently, why bother making a KT fighter when the hype is so borked only one org exists (and barely at times) so you're probably never in belt contention because of said top guys, you get all the downsides of MMA energy loss, but then 0 of the fame that comes with being at the top of MMA.

Making anything more accessible (which fixing the hype and reducing energy loss will do) has historically had the opposite effect of gatekeeping it to fewer elite managers. It's the opposite.

 

[Gonzasco]

Personal Anecdote: I've picked up bad free agents with some striking skills and sent them to kt and gotten number 1 rank on their weightclass, beating elite managers with elite fighters bred for kt. Would that be as easy or possible if the top elite in kt have no damage deducted from their fighter(from injuries) and no missed training time from fights? I think this would mostly benefit the already elite manager kt scene

 

https://www.mmatycoon.com/fighterprofilepublic.php?FID=313785

 

https://www.mmatycoon.com/fighterprofilepublic.php?FID=287849

[Skuzbukit]

49 minutes ago, Daudy said:

And definitely not in regards to the suggestion to add energy penalties to grappling. Realism is one thing, but the last thing we need in this game is drawing it out and making it so fighters have even fewer training sessions in an already glacial slow process to get guys up to scratch.

With an increase to learning speed this change would be viable, and an increase to learning speed is probably the most popular asked for change I'm aware of.

[Daudy]

6 minutes ago, Skuzbukit said:

With an increase to learning speed this change would be viable, and an increase to learning speed is probably the most popular asked for change I'm aware of.

Why two steps forward then one step back?

Ultimately, it's already a fringe part of a fringe game. What would adding energy costs to grappling achieve in the context of this game that's positive?

[Gator001]

the amount of orgs, fighters and manaagers in game right now is the lowest i have seen in my five years by a long long way. I am all for changes and fixing problems but there are areas that need attention that are much more important to the game

there is only 1 KT org left and it is full of inactive managers and only a handfull of quality fighters

KT is not important, its a place you put slow learners and if they do well you keep them going

changing the rules to make it easier for those who come and go doesnt fix the game. People play the game because it is long and takes time to get on top, Its a text based game it is never going to be playstation where you get instant gratification 

[Flipper]

49 minutes ago, Skuzbukit said:

With an increase to learning speed this change would be viable, and an increase to learning speed is probably the most popular asked for change I'm aware of.

Then maybe someone should make a thread and a poll dedicated to that, but responding to a question about changing one part of the game by suggesting changes to a different, completely unrelated part doesn’t add much to the discussion here. 

[Flipper]

8 minutes ago, Gator001 said:

 

the amount of orgs, fighters and manaagers in game right now is the lowest i have seen in my five years by a long long way. I am all for changes and fixing problems but there are areas that need attention that are much more important to the game

 

The reason for the discussion on this particular topic is simply because I wanted it to change and instead of doing what everyone else does and just bitch about it, I took it to the man himself and got a response and now I’m following up on that response. I want KT to matter simply because I want it to. Talking about other changes that need to be made are discussions for elsewhere. I know I’m not going to magically fix the entire game by getting KT fixed, but it will make KT more enjoyable. This isn’t about instant gratification, it’s about gratification period.

[Gator001]

fair enough mate but all your points would be addressed with a qfc kt, no need to change KT for the whole game

 

If want to learn there is qfc, want quick gratification there is the island

want to practice sliders use qfc and read the information out there, join an alliance

 

Its great you are looking to improve the game but in this instance i am a no vote

[Gator001]

and just a question with no disrespect. How many KT fighters do you have on your roster (i dont see any) and how many KT fighters have you been fighting in KT orgs the last 2 years?

[Rambo]

I'd love to see annual KT style world championships / Olympics. Basically TWGC but KT. And/or KT style QFC tournaments for younger fighters/new creations.

 

Fixing KT hype would go a long way and also keeping KT record separate from MMA record. KT fights their own category, just like TWGC.

 

That said, a very, very small % play KT Tycoon. Most do it out of laziness or convenience, others for easy and padded wins because the competition demographic is typically weak or discarded goods.

 

Oh, and KT weight class trophies need to be distinguishable from MMA wc trophies. Would be easy to put KT on current variation of logo/trophy, or a gold, silver, bronze kickboxer trophy instead.

 

For fighter HOF (on manager profile), would be cool to be able to choose to display KT rank (and have the KT logo or indicator next to fighter name to distinguish difference between highest mma and kt rank)

[Mannetosen]

7 hours ago, Skuzbukit said:

Words

As someone who has competed in both MMA, Muay Thai and BJJ/submission grappling: There's no way that grappling is anywhere near as cardio intensive as any striking sport. Sure, wrestling is, but wrestling isn't really a part of this game.

While it's unrealistic that grappling takes no energy and leads to no injuries, I'm fine with it from a game perspective. I'm usually back in training the day after competing in grappling. On the other hand, I've felt most matches I've had in striking for at least several days after the fact.

As far as I'm concerned you could axe all energy loss and injuries from the game and not lose much, but let's not pretend it's realistic to do so.