Fight engine improvements (April '15 discussion)

[FallenFlyer]

I believe an non-specified energy cliff should be implemented when it comes to takedowns.

 

It is both counter-productive for a wrestler to be 'exhausted' after three failed attempts but it's equally daft for someone to even have a chance after 25 failed attempts. I'd also say a sensible reset connected to strikes should delay the cliff would also help well rounded fighters implement a sensible ground game plan.

 

The ground game (as my naive eyes see it) probably needs a bigger overhaul but that would take a lot of time, money and cross players. If you could implement posturing (stat and slider), accuracy/power (slider) and choke/arm submissions (separate subs into two) then you would have far more variants to play with like striking. Hopefully this would help even out the process as there would be more things to work with and escapes could then be interwoven more satisfactory into that mix.

 

Of course this is more an 18 to 24 month project opposed to an immediate pay off.

 

Also, why would you not simply implement a partial reallocation where a manager can only change a maximum of 110 points? Then a fighter cannot be completely altered and no one will create too many freaks but any wholes can be patched.

[ArtieBanks]

So:

 

1. Mike Tweaks it so stand ups are not so prevalent.

2. Re-allocation. Question: if you can re-allocate into escapes, what about the fighters that allocated INTO escapes last time (when they WERE supposed to work) and have had to adapt a ground game, transitions, solid ground offense, can they take points OUT of escapes because they don't need them? There will be fighters WITH escapes, and now don't need them because they found out they were crap and adjusted. Maybe they want these points BACK?

 

To answer question two, most people that visit the forums, chat or anywhere else had a feeling that escapes weren't going to be useful giving what Mike had said. A lot of us decided against putting in escapes but putting it into transitions instead, because it is easier to get a refs stand up. People make choices when changes are made, some are successful and others aren't, i cannot be held accountable for that. Now Mike wants to revamp it again and make escapes more viable after two years of being introduced.

 

This is like saying to those who got it right, congrads you got it right, now either cut your fighters or suck.

[Marky]

So:

 

1. Mike Tweaks it so stand ups are not so prevalent.

2. Re-allocation. Question: if you can re-allocate into escapes, what about the fighters that allocated INTO escapes last time (when they WERE supposed to work) and have had to adapt a ground game, transitions, solid ground offense, can they take points OUT of escapes because they don't need them? There will be fighters WITH escapes, and now don't need them because they found out they were crap and adjusted. Maybe they want these points BACK?

 

This is a good question and in all fairness it should be an option. Also, maybe lock knees and elbows so the über strikers need to take points from the actual skills they use instead of getting rid of the "unwanted points" to finish off their perfect builds...

[gwad12345]

 

This is a good question and in all fairness it should be an option. Also, maybe lock knees and elbows so the über strikers need to take points from the actual skills they use instead of getting rid of the "unwanted points" to finish off their perfect builds...

 

This is actually sounds like a more interesting compromise.

[minark]

Locking out knees and elbows wouldn't be fair to anyone who actually has trained knees and elbows and wants to dial them back to move towards escapes. Wouldn't it be a better option to just not allow them to take skill points from a skill that was below a certain level? For random example, you can only decrease a skill down to 60 skill points. Past that, all skills are locked out. It's unfair to exclude only one skill set.

[Steel]

Dinooo - was getting it right , not allocating into escapes?

 

the reference to visiting the forums or chat, there are thousands that do not visit the forums.

 

the guys on here are the vocal minority.

 

Many managers would have took the original allocation at face value.

 

Personally I am not bothered, but it is important to keep a neutral view based on reality rather than just protecting ones roster that is based on fight engine knowledge, and not face value which would be employed by the majority.

[gwad12345]

Locking out knees and elbows wouldn't be fair to anyone who actually has trained knees and elbows and wants to dial them back to move towards escapes. Wouldn't it be a better option to just not allow them to take skill points from a skill that was below a certain level? For random example, you can only decrease a skill down to 60 skill points. Past that, all skills are locked out. It's unfair to exclude only one skill set.

 

Yes you are right. I was really saying that we should be hearing more creative ideas like his and now yours.

[Kronix]

Adding Knees and elbows to the standup part of the game would however make them viable as a choice and give more diversity. Many people avoid getting points in them as there are other skills more valueble if you are not making a clinch fighter. Should elbows and knees enter the standup realm, then putting points in them could possibly alter how a standup fighter would look in future. Elbow strikes nowdays in the UFC are quite common. Don't see too many knees standing but it happens, just look at Alistars last fight vs roy.

[PJbullet]

I like everythng I see accept no.1. It is mixed martial arts not because all fighters are well schooled in all diciplines, but because there are many fighters fighting against one another with different diciplines. Some fighters are just stand up fighters (they have no business on the ground) and train not to get taken down. Not to fight well if it goes to the ground. Some are just ground guys (If they can't get to the ground, they are going to get their heads pounded in). Joann Calderwood a world chapion kick boxer has just gotten blown out twice in her last 3 fight cause she can't fight on the ground.

 

This is the beauty of mixed martial arts. Sounds like we would be heading into a grappling competition with no.1.

[Guest]

I'm not sure if I make sense or what but why not staggered energy loss for failed take down attempts? For example, first failed takedown attempt you lose 1% then 2nd you lose 3% and so on.

[minark]

I'm not sure if I make sense or what but why not staggered energy loss for failed take down attempts? For example, first failed takedown attempt you lose 1% then 2nd you lose 3% and so on.

I don't know how hard it'd be to implement but I like this idea. Hurts spammers in the long term and awards the people who use takedowns mixed in.

[Rain]

Escapes skill should be strongly boosted, elbows should be stronger but less % to land. It's really hard to hold someone on the ground...

 

Also, I've thought of an idea: counter escapes. That it would be easier to escape if whe counter for example a failed triangle choke attempt or an armbar/leglock attempt and stand up

[Kanis]

Adding Knees and elbows to the standup part of the game would however make them viable as a choice and give more diversity. Many people avoid getting points in them as there are other skills more valueble if you are not making a clinch fighter. Should elbows and knees enter the standup realm, then putting points in them could possibly alter how a standup fighter would look in future. Elbow strikes nowdays in the UFC are quite common. Don't see too many knees standing but it happens, just look at Alistars last fight vs roy.

Or Machida, in every fight.

[Scooby]

You guys make it sound like we are wrong for using the forums, how can you know what people think if they dont post? Its sorta like being a non-voter

[jeaston]

No I think it would stay the same, there would still be no need for escapes. The point is that strikers should more or less be forced to invest in escapes.

 

Even if escapes were made important, I still don't see people investing in it because D Grappling and Transitions are still way more important to a guy that gets taken down.

[jeaston]

After reading this today, it seems to me as if people just want to punish the people who have become good at the current system just because they themselves aren't that good at it....

[gwad12345]

 

Even if escapes were made important, I still don't see people investing in it because D Grappling and Transitions are still way more important to a guy that gets taken down.

If we nerf referee standups to the point where the only way they can consistently stand up is through escapes they will.

 

 

After reading this today, it seems to me as if people just want to punish the people who have become good at the current system just because they themselves aren't that good at it....

That definetly doesnt apply to me. cant speak for the others but I doubt its their intention too. Most people, myself included can see that the current system is very unrealistic and unbalanced.

[jeaston]

If we nerf referee standups to the point where the only way they can consistently stand up is through escapes they will.

 

 

That definetly doesnt apply to me. cant speak for the others but I doubt its their intention too. Most people, myself included can see that the current system is very unrealistic and unbalanced.

 

I obv know that doesn't apply to you McGee because your a beast!... but I don't know about unbalanced and thats probably because I'm very new to this. My thought process was that even if you nerfed stand ups to a point where you rarely got them without escapes, I still can't see myself investing in escapes. Reason being is that if I have elite D grappling paired with good hiddens and some other stuff, the chances of another fighter TKO'ing me on the ground or submitting me are already very slim. If I can put some points into my own submission skill or GNP and pair that with an elite transition skill I can wait for a reversal and restart the cycle. Realistically that will either lead to the fighter who originally earned the takedown gassing and getting knocked out on the feet anyway, or an everlasting ground battle that is nothing but transition, GnP, repear. I think that even if he nerfed standups it doesn't really change the actual fight engine.

[gwad12345]

 

I obv know that doesn't apply to you McGee because your a beast!... but I don't know about unbalanced and thats probably because I'm very new to this. My thought process was that even if you nerfed stand ups to a point where you rarely got them without escapes, I still can't see myself investing in escapes. Reason being is that if I have elite D grappling paired with good hiddens and some other stuff, the chances of another fighter TKO'ing me on the ground or submitting me are already very slim. If I can put some points into my own submission skill or GNP and pair that with an elite transition skill I can wait for a reversal and restart the cycle. Realistically that will either lead to the fighter who originally earned the takedown gassing and getting knocked out on the feet anyway, or an everlasting ground battle that is nothing but transition, GnP, repear. I think that even if he nerfed standups it doesn't really change the actual fight engine.

 

Not all fights end in TKO and when you get to higher competition where every other fighter has a granite chin, more and more fights end in decisions (depending on the weight class of course). You would be basically conceding a round every time you get taken down in the first 2-3 minutes and you will likely lose quite a few decisions you would have won had the referee stood up the fight after 30 secs.

 

Obviously building up ground offense instead of escapes is another option which some people will go for.

[jeaston]

 

Not all fights end in TKO and when you get to higher competition where every other fighter has a granite chin, more and more fights end in decisions (depending on the weight class of course). You would be basically conceding a round every time you get taken down in the first 2-3 minutes and you will likely lose quite a few decisions you would have won had the referee stood up the fight after 30 secs.

 

Obviously building up ground offense instead of escapes is another option which some people will go for.

 

Yeah but I thought the point of this change to the game was to improve the ground game. By making escapes so important, you are helping the stand up fighter more than you are hurting him. I think we would see a lot of managers who take a few skill points from D Grap and transitions, totally ignore elbows and knees (people hardly use eblows and knees right now as it is), putting them into escapes and the ground game would be then even worse then it already is. I think that a long term effect of increasing the importance of escapes could be the decrease of importance of D Grappling and Transitions while totally making elbows and knees irrelevant unless a huge, huge overhaul to the game engine is made.

[gwad12345]

 

Yeah but I thought the point of this change to the game was to improve the ground game. By making escapes so important, you are helping the stand up fighter more than you are hurting him. I think we would see a lot of managers who take a few skill points from D Grap and transitions, totally ignore elbows and knees (people hardly use eblows and knees right now as it is), putting them into escapes and the ground game would be then even worse then it already is. I think that a long term effect of increasing the importance of escapes could be the decrease of importance of D Grappling and Transitions while totally making elbows and knees irrelevant unless a huge, huge overhaul to the game engine is made.

 

I dont really see your logic.

 

1) By giving them another skill they have to train they wont be AS good elsewhere

a) If they take points out of d grap and transitions then they will take more damage on the ground.

If they take points out of standup skills they wont be able to dominate there as much as before

 

2) Right now standup guys have the best of both worlds, they can go 90 counter/control which effectively stops ground offense AND gets a standup <<Herein lies the main problem imo

a) In order to get escapes they will have to be more aggressive, opening themselves up to more attack

 

The referee standup is truly gods gift to standup MMATycoon fighters.

[jeaston]

 

I dont really see your logic.

 

1) By giving them another skill they have to train they wont be AS good elsewhere

a) If they take points out of d grap and transitions then they will take more damage on the ground.

If they take points out of standup skills they wont be able to dominate there as much as before

 

2) Right now standup guys have the best of both worlds, they can go 90 counter/control which effectively stops ground offense AND gets a standup <<Herein lies the main problem imo

a) In order to get escapes they will have to be more aggressive, opening themselves up to more attack

 

The referee standup is truly gods gift to standup MMATycoon fighters.

I get this but I guess my three questions would be as follows;

 

1. How good are escapes going to actually be? If a fighter can now just have elite escapes and be able to stand up immediately after getting taken down because of his elite escapes, then their was no point on changing anything in the first place. With the way the engine seems to work now, that could be a strong possibility because lets face it sometimes we all get lucky. Plus theoretically if I have a standup fighter who has Elite Punching, Kicking and Clinchwork and Strike D, paired with exceptional defensive grappling, transitions, and escapes then would anything actually change? Instead of the Ref standing guys up, guys would get up on their own and the problem wouldn't necessarily be solved.

 

2. Whats stopping guys from still doing 90 counter/control and still getting the same results? I mean even in real life MMA organizations, the ref has to stand up the fight eventually. Or it could go down like I said before, sweep GnP repeat.

 

3. A question I just though of is what if I don't adapt? What if I still keep that elite striker knowing everybody else is going to change their escapes knowing that to compensate for the importance of escapes managers are going to take away skills from things like punching, kicking, striking d, etc. Doesn't it become easier for my guy to K.O your guy because of your reduced stand up skills?

Edited April 15, 2015 by jmccrary

[vanillagorilla]

I know i am new and this is a bit off topic from whats being discussed but still an improvement none the less.

 

When you get an injury it never explains what or how it was caused.would be cool if it was in the fight breakdowm exactly when and how it happened so you have an idea whats going on.

just a thought.

[Bwang]

I know i am new and this is a bit off topic from whats being discussed but still an improvement none the less.

 

When you get an injury it never explains what or how it was caused.would be cool if it was in the fight breakdowm exactly when and how it happened so you have an idea whats going on.

just a thought.

 

a couple of recent threads about that topic:

http://www.mmatycoon.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=48793&hl=

http://www.mmatycoon.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=48794&hl=

 

basically the type of injury is just not described any further at this moment in time.

[ArtieBanks]

Dinooo - was getting it right , not allocating into escapes?

 

the reference to visiting the forums or chat, there are thousands that do not visit the forums.

 

the guys on here are the vocal minority.

 

Many managers would have took the original allocation at face value.

 

Personally I am not bothered, but it is important to keep a neutral view based on reality rather than just protecting ones roster that is based on fight engine knowledge, and not face value which would be employed by the majority.

 

I am not too fussed either, most of my guys have some sort of ground game, the only guy that doesn't is Ryo, and he could train the escapes as he is about 2200 skill points. We may be the vocal minority but we choose to use every resource available to us. It just feels like if reallocation isn't allowed then it is two fingers to guys who got it right, and it isn't as though this is a few weeks or months ago, this has been two years. There are a lot of builds which will be down the shitter because they hit the cap, nearing their peak and now getting this, as fuse said it could lead another heard of managers out of the door again.

 

It also goes the same about lowering the skill cap, but i'll create a different thread for that.