Fight engine improvements (April '15 discussion)

[shortfuse122829]

I'd prefer you needing each skill as the primary factor in defending against that skill rather than lower the cap. It'd make it harder to leave skills useless which would bring all the elite skills down some. Or you would just have to specialize to keep elite in whatever you wanted and just try to slider around the skills that you don't have.

 

 

I understand people saying that you don't need to learn how to throw "elbows" in order to defend elbows in real life....but in the same regard, you couldn't just train boxing, or MT from distance...or dirty boxing in order to defend against elbows. If you were fighting a guy who was known for his elbows in the clinch, you would probably bring somebody into your camp who has that skillset and train to defend against it. Since tycoon doesn't have an "offensive" elbows and "defensive" elbows stat it's really the only way I can see doing it.

 

 

The way it is now I still think that primaries, defensive grappling, striking defense and other skills are still too over-powered because if you are high in them you can hide lower transitions and such w/ good BJJ/d grapple. But I am really fine with whatever you decide, I won't be 1 of the managers that rage quits because my guys mostly suck anyway so I will just do a rebuild. (even though I hate those due to how long it takes to train now)

[Scooby]

I agree fuse but the only concern i have is forcing ground fighters to have escapes to defend them, however i do not know any other way

[Rambo]

http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/takedown.gif
Puno shoots in for a takedown from distance. He catches Brasnof napping and manages to drive through into side control!
Puno throwing ground and pound but whilst doing so, he forgets to control position and Brasnof works his way back to half guard. Good composure under pressure.
Puno takes a deep breath and rests his weight momentarily on top of his opponent, to control the position.
We've seen a great period of action over the last minute or so - credit to both fighters for going all out!
http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/sub.gif
Puno seems to be looking for submissions.
The ref warns both fighters not to hold the cage as they work up against the meshing.
http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/1.gif
That's one minute gone in the round.
Brasnof wants to get back to his feet.
Puno will need to keep those long limbs tucked in whilst he's on the ground, to prevent any submissions.
Puno is looking to advance position but Brasnof won't allow it.
http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/sub.gif
Brasnof is defending against the submission attempts here by Puno.
It looks like the ref is thinking about a standup.
Brasnof is trying to stand back up but Puno is controlling him
http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/refstandup3.gif
The referee decides to stand the fighters back up.

 

 

Referee standup from side control? He's set to 78% aggro and 74% finish. That's just fucking stupid. Cost me 100K too.

[GBK16]

Yeah there are some instances of strange AI on the ground. I know one guy in my tournament got stood up immediately following a submission attempt.

 

In your example, they transitioned to Half Guard straight after the takedown.

[ArtieBanks]

http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/takedown.gif

Puno shoots in for a takedown from distance. He catches Brasnof napping and manages to drive through into side control!

Puno throwing ground and pound but whilst doing so, he forgets to control position and Brasnof works his way back to half guard. Good composure under pressure.

Puno takes a deep breath and rests his weight momentarily on top of his opponent, to control the position.

We've seen a great period of action over the last minute or so - credit to both fighters for going all out!

http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/sub.gif

Puno seems to be looking for submissions.

The ref warns both fighters not to hold the cage as they work up against the meshing.

http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/1.gif

That's one minute gone in the round.

Brasnof wants to get back to his feet.

Puno will need to keep those long limbs tucked in whilst he's on the ground, to prevent any submissions.

Puno is looking to advance position but Brasnof won't allow it.

http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/sub.gif

Brasnof is defending against the submission attempts here by Puno.

It looks like the ref is thinking about a standup.

Brasnof is trying to stand back up but Puno is controlling him

http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/refstandup3.gif

The referee decides to stand the fighters back up.

 

 

Referee standup from side control? He's set to 78% aggro and 74% finish. That's just fucking stupid. Cost me 100K too.

 

sub attempt then two moves, it appears though you were in half guard not side control hence the stand up. In side control you would have gotten another couple of moves.

[Rambo]

 

sub attempt then two moves, it appears though you were in half guard not side control hence the stand up. In side control you would have gotten another couple of moves.

 

Didn't read it. Oh well. Still retarded. Cost me 100K. Had to vent somewhere. Feels good to vent!

[Guest]

Can we make Charlie Sheen a little less of a bleeder? That would great, thanks.

[juret]

I believe an non-specified energy cliff should be implemented when it comes to takedowns.

 

It is both counter-productive for a wrestler to be 'exhausted' after three failed attempts but it's equally daft for someone to even have a chance after 25 failed attempts. I'd also say a sensible reset connected to strikes should delay the cliff would also help well rounded fighters implement a sensible ground game plan.

 

The ground game (as my naive eyes see it) probably needs a bigger overhaul but that would take a lot of time, money and cross players. If you could implement posturing (stat and slider), accuracy/power (slider) and choke/arm submissions (separate subs into two) then you would have far more variants to play with like striking. Hopefully this would help even out the process as there would be more things to work with and escapes could then be interwoven more satisfactory into that mix.

 

Of course this is more an 18 to 24 month project opposed to an immediate pay off.

 

Also, why would you not simply implement a partial reallocation where a manager can only change a maximum of 110 points? Then a fighter cannot be completely altered and no one will create too many freaks but any wholes can be patched.

i like that first part.

fighters spamming takedowns untill they get one is so unrealistic, i seen and posted fights with more then 50-60 takedowns and 5-6 succed and they done nothing else.

In real fighting if someone just shoots for takedown he would get a knee or uppercut by attempt 5-6...

 

mike

[Timmy]

 

1. Decrease standups.

Yes. Empower escapes too, especially from good top positions. No to org control.

 

2. Increase GNP land % and decrease damage from each GNP shot to compensate.

Yes, but don't nerf damage from side and mount.

 

3. Decrease energy loss from failed takedowns. *N.B. People were actually calling for increased % of takedowns succeeding but I think this will be a better solution.

Yes, decrease energy loss generally, but please only if you can add in something to punish spamming at the same time.

 

A. More accuracy for elbows, less accuracy (but more damage) for knees in the clinch. It's too easy for strikers to dominate clinch with just punches.

 

B. Yes to redistribution.

 

C. Use the redistribution to tackle the game's real problem by reducing the skill cap at the same time. Even if it's only a small amount, every opportunity should be taken.

[Guest]

 

3. Decrease energy loss from failed takedowns. *N.B. People were actually calling for increased % of takedowns succeeding but I think this will be a better solution.

Yes, decrease energy loss generally, but please only if you can add in something to punish spamming at the same time.

 

Staggered energy loss from failed takedown attempts I think is the solution here. For example, in the present engine, energy loss for every takedown attempt is 5%. In the suggested solution, for example the energy loss will be decreased to 2% but for every succeeding failed takedown attempt, it increases. So for the next failed takedown it will increase the energy loss to 5%. In this case, takedown spammers will be punished while those who mix it with strikes will not be affected by that much.

 

It makes sense too in RL.

[Scooby]

Is this thread getting anywhere closer to a consensus at all?

[Steel]

Tweak system based on fuse and dinooo suggestions.

 

Re allocation into and out of transitions.

 

Does training takedowns help with takedown defence? Always assumed it does but our alliance have doubts.

[Steel]

Sorry into out of escapes I mean

[shortfuse122829]

I agree fuse but the only concern i have is forcing ground fighters to have escapes to defend them, however i do not know any other way

 

 

I think it'll be a pain too honestly but I can't think of another way either. I mean I dunno what kind of "engine" calculations go into deciding escapes so maybe it's be something pretty easy for Mike to fix. & I can't really remember exactly what the %'s are into deciding escapes but let's just say it is something like....

 

25% BJJ, 25% wrestling, 25% d. grapple, 15% escapes 2ndary & 10% various physicals

 

I just don't see how they'll ever really be that effective. All ground fighters (except maybe right at creation) are going to be high enough in wrestling, BJJ, d grapple and physicals that the miniscule amount that escapes actually accounts for is going to render them pretty ineffective. Whatever the %'s were when decided upon should've made that fairly obvious to everybody

[Rambo]

Just say no to reallocation.

[Kronix]

Is this thread getting anywhere closer to a consensus at all?

 

It never does. You'll never be able to get all managers to see eye to eye on things. It's just not possible. So it's up to mike to sort out the noice and see if he sees something he likes or just goes with his own plan. After all, he sees the bigger picture and all managers idea is based on what they think they know about the engine. Falls assumption can make things even worse than they originally were.

[ArtieBanks]

Tweak system based on fuse and dinooo suggestions.

 

Re allocation into and out of transitions.

 

Does training takedowns help with takedown defence? Always assumed it does but our alliance have doubts.

 

Mike once said it does, i always give my wrestlers some tdd and they then rarely get taken down, i assume it helps a bit but not like kicks.

 

Giving what Mike said about a skill defending a skill, it has showed a bit of light into how it actually works and why kicks are the most lethal.

[MMATycoon]

I prefer not to chip in too much with my own opinions until the thread starts to slow down and not really offer any opinions. I've made a couple of notes based on these last couple of pages; I know there's never really a consensus but these threads are always useful.

[ArtieBanks]

I prefer not to chip in too much with my own opinions until the thread starts to slow down and not really offer any opinions. I've made a couple of notes based on these last couple of pages; I know there's never really a consensus but these threads are always useful.

 

Well you have the deciding vote anyway on what actually happens, personally as long as you do not lower the skill cap i won't feel the need to hunt you down and burn you at the stake.

[Scooby]

 

Well you have the deciding vote anyway on what actually happens, personally as long as you do not lower the skill cap i won't feel the need to hunt you down and burn you at the stake.

 

I think that you should have to hunt him down then... i'd like it lowered

[Rambo]

OK, so it looks like people are wanting a few tweaks to the fight engine, which I'm happy to do.

 

The summary of what I've seen proposed:

 

1. Decrease standups.

2. Increase GNP land % and decrease damage from each GNP shot to compensate.

3. Decrease energy loss from failed takedowns. *N.B. People were actually calling for increased % of takedowns succeeding but I think this will be a better solution.

4. Easier to get into clinch and to break the clinch.

5. Clinch takedowns failing shouldn't break clinch quite as often.

 

Everyone happy with that? Any additions / objections, please post below. Try and keep it brief but with some reasoning. Thanks!

 

p.s. I have a question regarding standups...

 

Is the problem

A. Quick standups after a takedown.

B. A while after the takedown it just becomes too hard to keep it on the ground.

C. Both.

 

At the moment we have a base value for standups that can get hit after e.g. 6 moves on the ground, so if you are really inactive for the first 6 moves you would get stood up. Then after each move we have an additional value that slowly builds up, so the more moves you have on the ground the move active you need to be to keep it there. I can adjust either of those factors.

 

Ref Stand ups are really flippin confusing now that I started looking back on certain fights. I've seen fights where the entire thing has taken place on the ground or the wrestler has no issues at all with ref stand ups. I think they need toned down a little bit, but there should just be more "inactivity text" before we see the ref stand up. I think if we got more lines of "the crowd hurling abuse at the fighters for being inactive" "the ref thinking about standing them up here" "There two fighters are just holding each other, hugging it out, I think we have brokeback fighter on our hands" we would understand why we're seeing Ref Stand up rather than being completely confused when it happens.

 

Obviously the GNP you land at a frantic rate wouldn't be as powerful as controlling your opponent and focusing/selecting your punches/elbows.

 

I would like to see failed takedowns end up with the fighter occasionally stuffing them in dominant ground position. Maybe add a new ground position from sprawling a TD. It should be really easy for a guy to stand up from this position. Like a 90-98% success rate.

 

I would like to see fighters looking to escape/stand up from top position, not receive a penalty and be easier to submit. A fighter trying to avoid the ground game isn't as likely to get put in an armbar or triangle if he's trying to get up and not fall into it.

 

I think the decrease energy % from TD's should only decrease for those who have upper levels of cardio. Basically think there should be a bigger difference from wonderful cardio and elite cardio. Wonderful cardio might be BJ Penn (ha...), but elite cardio is Frankie Edgar.

 

I'm self-medicated so I know I didn't do a good job organizing this or wording it.

[Rain]

Yea, I think cardio should be allowed to be trained to for example Legendary (20). That would solve the all 15 physicals problem, the body gassing problem, also it will start making the fighters differ because of their cardio - for example Cain Velasquez is known to push the pace for 5 rounds while other don't have such big cardio. These cardio monsters usually win fights in the later rounds

[Timmy]

Yea, I think cardio should be allowed to be trained to for example Legendary (20). That would solve the all 15 physicals problem, the body gassing problem, also it will start making the fighters differ because of their cardio - for example Cain Velasquez is known to push the pace for 5 rounds while other don't have such big cardio. These cardio monsters usually win fights in the later rounds

 

If you were going to do that, you might as well make all the attributes go up to 20. That would have the same effect as fixing the skill caps that are the root cause of clone fighters and your "all 15 physicals problem".

[minark]

 

If you were going to do that, you might as well make all the attributes go up to 20. That would have the same effect as fixing the skill caps that are the root cause of clone fighters and your "all 15 physicals problem".

I know it probably isn't the popular idea but I'd be happy to see skills raised to 20 with the cap remaining the same and an increase in training speed at least a little bit. More possible variety in fighter builds and a little quicker pace of game. Doesn't have to be anything drastic.

[Rain]

I know it probably isn't the popular idea but I'd be happy to see skills raised to 20 with the cap remaining the same and an increase in training speed at least a little bit. More possible variety in fighter builds and a little quicker pace of game. Doesn't have to be anything drastic.

 

Yup, and I don't understand why I got negged for this. It would be really nice to see the top not like 15/15/15/Black, all physicals 15, all secondaries 15 except for elbows, knees and escapes.