Fight engine improvements (April '15 discussion)

[gwad12345]

I know it probably isn't the popular idea but I'd be happy to see skills raised to 20 with the cap remaining the same and an increase in training speed at least a little bit. More possible variety in fighter builds and a little quicker pace of game. Doesn't have to be anything drastic.

 

I think this makes more sense than reducing the cap while achieving the same thing.

[ArtieBanks]

 

I think this makes more sense than reducing the cap while achieving the same thing.

 

That is lowering the cap, and a significant lowering at that. There are no happy medium for me when it comes to something like this. The way the cap is right now allows for fighter diversity without having to sacrifice other areas. Essentially it allows for fighters to have good strengths and no too bad of a weaknesses, which means it becomes more about sliders and less about abusing someones weakness.

[Marky]

 

That is lowering the cap, and a significant lowering at that. There are no happy medium for me when it comes to something like this. The way the cap is right now allows for fighter diversity without having to sacrifice other areas. Essentially it allows for fighters to have good strengths and no too bad of a weaknesses, which means it becomes more about sliders and less about abusing someones weakness.

 

More interesting fights with fighters actually having weaknesses and variable builds, not necessarily to a point of being abused but still somewhat weaker areas. Now it's more like abusing sliders and less about fighter diversity in my opinion. Like in my next fight, I know almost 100 percent what kind of gameplan the opponent will use but I'll probably not be able to stop it with the build my guy has since most of the tricks my guy has have been nerfed.

[ArtieBanks]

 

More interesting fights with fighters actually having weaknesses and variable builds, not necessarily to a point of being abused but still somewhat weaker areas. Now it's more like abusing sliders and less about fighter diversity in my opinion. Like in my next fight, I know almost 100 percent what kind of gameplan the opponent will use but I'll probably not be able to stop it with the build my guy has since most of the tricks my guy has have been nerfed.

 

It is a difference of opinion, i do not fight at the low level, i very rarely take fights between 18-22 because it does not interest me at all, it requires 0 slider skill and is all about the match ups. At the top level you have your strengths and slight weaknesses (strikers with a clinch vs grapplers with a striking game) it becomes a battle of sliders and the knowledge required to get the fight into your required area. At the lower levels it is about finding the weakness and battering it to a pulp.

[Rambo]

nvm

[Timmy]

 

It is a difference of opinion, i do not fight at the low level, i very rarely take fights between 18-22 because it does not interest me at all, it requires 0 slider skill and is all about the match ups. At the top level you have your strengths and slight weaknesses (strikers with a clinch vs grapplers with a striking game) it becomes a battle of sliders and the knowledge required to get the fight into your required area. At the lower levels it is about finding the weakness and battering it to a pulp.

 

I understand you a bit better now, but I still disagree. There is a place for sliders in any match up and, it's only my opinion, but I think some real style differences between fighters would actually be a challenge to managers at a high level who are used to fighting three or four varieties of the same build and wouldn't do the game any harm whatsoever. Any manager with any sense would keep their builds sensibly balanced to avoid gross weaknesses, so I don't believe the role of slider skill would be diminished at the top level. What it would do though is allow enough variety to give every fighter some character.

 

I like winning fights like anyone else but it's never been paramount to me to try to be No.1 here. Respect to people who have been, but doing it the way things are now doesn't interest me that much. I don't want to make clones. Give me the chance to start working out my own strategies in an environment with more variety though, and that becomes a different story. This has always been my motivation for calling for lower skill caps.. I want to create my own style rather than learn a blueprint.

[Marky]

 

It is a difference of opinion, i do not fight at the low level, i very rarely take fights between 18-22 because it does not interest me at all, it requires 0 slider skill and is all about the match ups. At the top level you have your strengths and slight weaknesses (strikers with a clinch vs grapplers with a striking game) it becomes a battle of sliders and the knowledge required to get the fight into your required area. At the lower levels it is about finding the weakness and battering it to a pulp.

 

Yep it's only opinions and everyone has their own way. I also disagree about dissing low level fights and not fighting between 18-22 or so since I feel it is our duty as veteran managers to support the newbie fighter orgs for the good of the game instead of isolation and making sure we have so good fighters when we fight that chances of losing will be a lot lower. If they train until 22 with quality training they are probably so far ahead in skills that not many peers want to fight them and older guys have more hype so they are not interested either, so you'll end up beating to a bulp those who just don't know any better.

[Marky]

 

I understand you a bit better now, but I still disagree. There is a place for sliders in any match up and, it's only my opinion, but I think some real style differences between fighters would actually be a challenge to managers at a high level who are used to fighting three or four varieties of the same build and wouldn't do the game any harm whatsoever. Any manager with any sense would keep their builds sensibly balanced to avoid gross weaknesses, so I don't believe the role of slider skill would be diminished at the top level. What it would do though is allow enough variety to give every fighter some character.

 

I like winning fights like anyone else but it's never been paramount to me to try to be No.1 here. Respect to people who have been, but doing it the way things are now doesn't interest me that much. I don't want to make clones. Give me the chance to start working out my own strategies in an environment with more variety though, and that becomes a different story. This has always been my motivation for calling for lower skill caps.. I want to play around with possibilities rather than learn a blueprint.

 

That was well said Timmy. I totally agree.

[shortfuse122829]

I am torn on this, I agree it'd be more fun w/ varied builds and having to slider around weaknesses than some of the clones that we have now. But I am w/ Dinooo in that I can't stand fighting at the lower levels because it is far too easy to abuse weaknesses. I picked up a fighter who has pretty good hiddens, KO power and chin but was knocked out a lot early & the main reason is because he was fighting w/o possessing kicks. So anytime he fought a MT build he would just get abused to fuck w/ kicks. Guys able to land 60-70% of their kicks against him. So usually when I fight at the lower levels (which i try to avoid) I just find that skill that is lacking and attack it full force (throwing big dmg) because I am still able to land a very high % of those strikes despite the extreme sliders I am using.

 

So less experienced managers than myself would think, oh my guys chin is shitty which doesn't make any sense because he popped granite on the ToTT....when that isn't really the case, it's just extremely easy to abuse the shit out of a skill like kicks when your opponent doesn't have any. It's very misleading to newer players who dont' understand the game mechanics

[gwad12345]

 

That is lowering the cap, and a significant lowering at that. There are no happy medium for me when it comes to something like this. The way the cap is right now allows for fighter diversity without having to sacrifice other areas. Essentially it allows for fighters to have good strengths and no too bad of a weaknesses, which means it becomes more about sliders and less about abusing someones weakness.

 

I see your point and I agree with you to a certain degree. On the other hand I see pros and cons.

 

First of all lowering the skill limit or allowing skills to go over 15 would really be more realistic. Every fighter in real has weaknesses and every fighter matches up better against certain fighters rather that other. I do think it would make the game a little more interesting with more diversity.

 

That being said there are drawbacks as you said. It becomes less about sliders and more about build and matchups. The matchups part is what I am worried about the most but not for any reason I've read here so far (I did only skim through the last couple posts though). I am worried because I think the propensity to duck and avoid certain matchups at the higher levels will be much, much greater than it is now. For example someone who's build is, let's say 19-17-12-11 may have a lot of incentive to duck a fighter whose build is 13-13-18-17 (you get the idea). Of course incentive doesnt necessarily mean he or she will duck but now there is an incentive that didn't really exist before or at least not to as high a degree. I could see that being an issue.

 

Still I'm torn.

[UniConor]

Maybe we could test the idea on the island next season or one after... See how we like it?

[Timmy]

 

I see your point and I agree with you to a certain degree. On the other hand I see pros and cons.

 

First of all lowering the skill limit or allowing skills to go over 15 would really be more realistic. Every fighter in real has weaknesses and every fighter matches up better against certain fighters rather that other. I do think it would make the game a little more interesting with more diversity.

 

That being said there are drawbacks as you said. It becomes less about sliders and more about build and matchups. The matchups part is what I am worried about the most but not for any reason I've read here so far (I did only skim through the last couple posts though). I am worried because I think the propensity to duck and avoid certain matchups at the higher levels will be much, much greater than it is now. For example someone who's build is, let's say 19-17-12-11 may have a lot of incentive to duck a fighter whose build is 13-13-18-17 (you get the idea). Of course incentive doesnt necessarily mean he or she will duck but now there is an incentive that didn't really exist before or at least not to as high a degree. I could see that being an issue.

 

Still I'm torn.

 

I think you are right and people would overestimate what a rise to 20 rank skills would mean. The difference between sensational and elite is not very much compared to lower values, and I assume if Mike were to do something like this he would spread that progression over the new range so that by the time you got to 18/19/20 the differences would be almost negligable. There probably would be a ducking epidemic though just because the number gap looks wider. That's a good point, and as an org owner the idea looks less attractive now lol.

[ArtieBanks]

 

I understand you a bit better now, but I still disagree. There is a place for sliders in any match up and, it's only my opinion, but I think some real style differences between fighters would actually be a challenge to managers at a high level who are used to fighting three or four varieties of the same build and wouldn't do the game any harm whatsoever. Any manager with any sense would keep their builds sensibly balanced to avoid gross weaknesses, so I don't believe the role of slider skill would be diminished at the top level. What it would do though is allow enough variety to give every fighter some character.

 

I like winning fights like anyone else but it's never been paramount to me to try to be No.1 here. Respect to people who have been, but doing it the way things are now doesn't interest me that much. I don't want to make clones. Give me the chance to start working out my own strategies in an environment with more variety though, and that becomes a different story. This has always been my motivation for calling for lower skill caps.. I want to create my own style rather than learn a blueprint.

 

The counter argument to this is the fact that guys who fight at the low level-mid level can still fight there, there is nothing saying you cannot stop training or cut the guys once they get to a certain level. All this is doing is cutting out the top tier which is what me and many other managers enjoy fighting at because we feel it is a true test of slider skill and not as i said finding a weakness and battering it to a bloody pulp. Here is the thing, right now if you have a well balanced fighter then he will not have anymore than one or two skills elite, most will be sens/exp/wonderful and none of his physicals will be elite other than cardio. These guys can be beaten by fighters who specialize in certain areas; as long as they can slider properly. It doesn't take a slider expert to know that if a guy has wonderful MT that his kick or clinch game isn't great, you check his previous fights and see which one it is, then you beat the shit out of him. At the top level this doesn't happen a lot, there have been exceptions where someone has specialized in one area so much that they do have a weakness like this like Womba and yet still manages to be highly successful. These triple elite monsters that everyone talks about as if they are mythological monsters are not that scary and tend to not have any real specialist areas and tend to strictly be stand up guys with maybe a hint of the ground game, if you have a good ground game then you will be able to beat them, if you can slider your way to the ground at the top level.

 

The cons of lower the skill cap are these

 

1. Mangers will leave, it is that simple a lot of managers enjoy fighting at the top level and hate fighting at the lower level because to them it doesn't require any sort of skill, it is just a battle of match ups and fighter builds which leads me to my next point.

 

2. Match up rejections, there will be plenty of these and i mean plenty. People won't take fights in which they have a clear weakness against the opponent, it will lead to org owners jumping off skyscrapers and a lot of calling other managers a pussy.

 

3. This diversity thing and following a blueprint, it will happen again. In every single game there is certain things which are good and certain things which are bad, this will lead to a certain type of fighter rising up, it might be three different types of fighter. So in actual fact you might be taking away from the diversity of the game when you lower the skill cap because we will go from 5-10 builds down to 3 successful builds.

 

4. This is a personal one for me, you say that great managers will find it a challenge, i don't often like tooting my own horn but after almost two years at the top in the game i think i am now qualified to say this. I have fought at the levels where my fighters skills are perhaps 2000-2300, it tends to be when my fighters are 22 and above. Out of 52 fights at that level with my current fighters, i am 49-3, with two of those loses coming in Immortals when my guy was fighting other guys ready to make the big time with my weakest Kersikov, the other loss was Hamish Kersikov losing to Hardacre who was about a two months older than him when Hamish was 21 not to mention that Hardacre is a monster. This isn't a challenge to me, fighting in ID orgs to me is just getting my fighters experience up and their hype up before moving to the big leagues, nothing else.

 

My main argument though against this is the fact that those guys who want to fight at the mid tier level can do so, there is nothing stopping them cutting their fighter once he reaches a certain level, it is the same with a top fighter once he starts to depop. I just don't want my favorite part about this game to be cut out because other people don't like it, when there is already an alternative there.

[Timmy]

 

The cons of lower the skill cap are these

 

1. Mangers will leave, it is that simple a lot of managers enjoy fighting at the top level and hate fighting at the lower level because to them it doesn't require any sort of skill, it is just a battle of match ups and fighter builds which leads me to my next point.

 

2. Match up rejections, there will be plenty of these and i mean plenty. People won't take fights in which they have a clear weakness against the opponent, it will lead to org owners jumping off skyscrapers and a lot of calling other managers a pussy.

 

3. This diversity thing and following a blueprint, it will happen again. In every single game there is certain things which are good and certain things which are bad, this will lead to a certain type of fighter rising up, it might be three different types of fighter. So in actual fact you might be taking away from the diversity of the game when you lower the skill cap because we will go from 5-10 builds down to 3 successful builds.

 

4. This is a personal one for me, you say that great managers will find it a challenge, i don't often like tooting my own horn but after almost two years at the top in the game i think i am now qualified to say this. I have fought at the levels where my fighters skills are perhaps 2000-2300, it tends to be when my fighters are 22 and above. Out of 52 fights at that level with my current fighters, i am 49-3, with two of those loses coming in Immortals when my guy was fighting other guys ready to make the big time with my weakest Kersikov, the other loss was Hamish Kersikov losing to Hardacre who was about a two months older than him when Hamish was 21 not to mention that Hardacre is a monster. This isn't a challenge to me, fighting in ID orgs to me is just getting my fighters experience up and their hype up before moving to the big leagues, nothing else.

 

 

1. I think to say that no skill is required is an injustice. Just like in real life there are some fights that only depend on exploiting/spamming a weakness, but every fight is different. One could just as easily say that there's no no skill in top level clone fights because it's only about hiddens and training.

 

2. Agreed.

 

3. I missed the first year and a half of the game though, so the blueprint already existed for me. Maybe it's selfish to wish for a new shake-up, but I would personally enjoy being in the race to find some of the (more numerous and varied) builds that can dominate after a cap change.

 

4. Understood. I would probably say the same if I were you.

 

I'm beginning to back away from this idea of a Pan-Tycoon change and beginning to think about other ways to create variety. Tournaments or specialist orgs maybe. You have not made me stop wanting some change, but I now see your point of view and it is reasonable. I'll be thinking now about other ideas I can campaign for that don't change the main game

[ArtieBanks]

 

1. I think to say that no skill is required is an injustice. Just like in real life there are some fights that only depend on expliting/spamming a weakness, but every fight is different. One could just as easily say that there's no no skill in top level clone fights because it's only about hiddens and training. On the other hand, I don't want to see anyone leave for any reason.

 

2. Agreed.

 

3. I missed the first year and a half of the game though, so the blueprint already existed for me. Maybe it's selfish to wish for a new shake-up, but I would personally enjoy being in the race to find some of the (more numerous and varied) builds that can dominate after a cap change.

 

4. Understood. I would probably say the same if I were you.

 

I'm beginning to back away from this idea of a Pan-Tycoon change and beginning to think about other ways to create variety. Tournaments or specialist orgs maybe. You have not made me stop wanting some change, but I now see your point of view and it is reasonable. I'll be thinking now about other ideas I can campaign for that don't change the main game

 

It has changed a few times, every time there is a major change in the engine it shakes up the builds, it keeps the game intriguing and fun to play. Since the skill cap has been introduced and training time sped up a bit, it has allowed for these first gen fighters, now with another change on the way and fighters rotate over again in the next year or so, new builds will become more prevalent.

[Kronix]

Maybe we could test the idea on the island next season or one after... See how we like it?

Think that is a great idea. The downside if the changes don't work, would be almost none existing compared to the original part of the game. The island first, get some data. Tweak if necessary, introduce it to the real game.

[Wolf]

Maybe we could test the idea on the island next season or one after... See how we like it?

 

This. This is what i thought the island was for, for players to help test new ideas without fucking up the main part of the game if they do not work

[Scooby]

Can we at least lower referee standups in the main game now though? I mean shit we gotta wait for a 6month island season to revisit this???

 

To fix the "ducking issue" that comes with raising skills to (20) then set each skill as we do with BJJ (1-5 is feeble 6-10 average etc) so that we cant see 18-17-12-brown but instead wonderful-wonderful-legendary-black

 

PS:Rain,i tried to +1 you from the cell phone and it negged you instead,my bad...

[minark]

PS:Rain,i tried to +1 you from the cell phone and it negged you instead,my bad...

 

I evened it back out.

[juret]

Think that is a great idea. The downside if the changes don't work, would be almost none existing compared to the original part of the game. The island first, get some data. Tweak if necessary, introduce it to the real game.

I agree with this.

1. make changes on island first, with news before so groundgame get different outcome.

2. then u have data and games to analyze and to check with managers about the engine and result.

3. the two above points means managers both got time to train and to build fighters accourding to the coming changes and also gives an experiment place to try the changes out before they go live.

 

mike

[JLP]

If we have to wait for an island season to run we are truly fucked. Also Island fighters have no skills. It would really provide no valuable data to see if the changes have any effect at all.

[Kronix]

If we have to wait for an island season to run we are truly fucked. Also Island fighters have no skills. It would really provide no valuable data to see if the changes have any effect at all.

 

How is it any different... changes haven't been made for 2 years. So how are we truely fucked as of now? It's not a recent change that is the issue. The island fighters will get a bump in points the coming season. Perhaps it is possible to have a little extra for the sake of testing. But I'm quite certain mike doesn't just change numbers with out testing them first. By your reason we were already fucked 2 years ago, so what's a few months going to do to change that? I rather have something solid than waste another 2 years on fighters with bad builds.

[JLP]

 

How is it any different... changes haven't been made for 2 years. So how are we truely fucked as of now? It's not a recent change that is the issue. The island fighters will get a bump in points the coming season. Perhaps it is possible to have a little extra for the sake of testing. But I'm quite certain mike doesn't just change numbers with out testing them first. By your reason we were already fucked 2 years ago, so what's a few months going to do to change that? I rather have something solid than waste another 2 years on fighters with bad builds.

Mike doesnt really test the engine by using managers to help. Thats why the problems show up down the line. He's not really keyed into how to play the game because he isnt a serious player. The first day predict was talked about I got an email from Duphus saying how it would kill grapplers and he was right on. It just took a few months of playing for the less savvy managers to pick up on it.

I don't know where you are coming up with the 2 years bit. The engine became unbalanced in Nov when predict and the legkick speed sap came into effect. That pretty much killed grapplers. Before that, you could live as a grappler despite ref standups because it was possible to get a TD and have the energy ratio fairly even. The CTD era was the best and most balanced engine we ever had and the most fun.

I didnt know Island fighters were getting a bump, but unless its to about 72-75% it still wont give us any information on how the high end of the game will work out.

[Stu_Pidasol]

It's fighters at the highest level of skill where you want to see how these changes take affect..

 

1. Slightly reduce the energy loss from shoot takedowns (increase on a scale after that, with a reset after each round)

2. Slight increase the effectiness of counter takedowns (been nerfed too much)

3. Decrease the amount of ref stand ups

4. Slightly increase GnP landing rate

5. Massively increase the effectiness of escapes (however you don't need escapes to defend them, meaning grapplers don't need yet another skill to compete)

6. Make entering and exiting clinch much easier (they are worse than takedowns)

7. Don't touch the accuracy of elbows or knees (they land at a fine rate now)

8. Do not do anything at all with skill caps or add even higher levels of skills

9. Slightly increase the advantage between elite and sensational and sensational and exceptional

 

 

*Edit - JLP is right the CTD era has been the most fun as it really opened up the range of slider settings you could use

[JLP]

It's fighters at the highest level of skill where you want to see how these changes take affect..

 

1. Slightly reduce the energy loss from shoot takedowns (increase on a scale after that, with a reset after each round)

2. Slight increase the effectiness of counter takedowns (been nerfed too much)

3. Decrease the amount of ref stand ups

4. Slightly increase GnP landing rate

5. Massively increase the effectiness of escapes (however you don't need escapes to defend them, meaning grapplers don't need yet another skill to compete)

6. Make entering and exiting clinch much easier (they are worse than takedowns)

7. Don't touch the accuracy of elbows or knees (they land at a fine rate now)

8. Do not do anything at all with skill caps or add even higher levels of skills

9. Slightly increase the advantage between elite and sensational and sensational and exceptional

I like all your ideas, but I dont think any of them should be modified to an extreme. A slight tweak on all of them will be more likely to balance the engine and not swing it in the other direction.

I'm warming to adding another couple levels to the top of the skills though. Maybe go to 17 and make exc 120 to 140, sens 140 to 160 and elite over 160.