gwad12345 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 I thought the big idea was to shift the getting up from the ground from refs to escapes! Please Mike DO NOT forget about escapes AGAIN ok? Escaping from different positions should be tweaked. From mount or side mount it should be very, very easy. From guard quite easy (I think there is no closed and open guard in this game right?). From the bottom should almost always need a sweep first (no idiotic stand ups / miracle escapes from dominant positions). In other words, lets make fighters earn the stand ups not given by the retarded refs. You know, like in the real life. The commentary makes some mention of open and closed guard now and then but that is probably just flavor text, I could be wrong. can anyone confirm? If it is just flavor text then it might be a good addition to the game. E.g closed guard means standups are harder while open guard means strikes are more difficult to land or something like that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMATycoon Posted April 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 yes it's just flavour text. however, conceptually (within the equations), it does exist. if someone is high on control from guard bottom then that's effectively closed guard, so it makes it harder to pass. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortfuse122829 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Rather than having a points redistribution, how about we just speed up the training you get on escapes by e.g. x3 for a while? I don't like the idea of a redistribution because the last one was to give points to these new skills in the first place. It's certainly possible to get escapes as it is now, so just because people chose to go down a different route I don't think we should just have a wipe clean button to allown them to have maximum points in escapes out of nothing. If you change how escapes work I think you'd really have to do another redistribution. A lot of my fighters are capped out or pretty damn close to being capped out and have useless escapes. So how quickly you can train them wouldn't really matter too much to any fighter that has been around awhile. When you first created these new skills and were discussing what the formulas should be to decide success rate on transitions and escapes, I thought it was fairly obvious that escapes was going to be a completely useless skill. For transitions, the major factor in success rate was going to be the transition skill (in order to decrease how over-powering d grapple was) but your wrestling primary, BJJ primary, and d. grapple were also going to be influences. Yet for escapes, the escape skill was not the major factor in deciding success rate. It was A factor, but it mostly looked at wrestling primary, BJJ primary and d. grapple. So I warned everybody before allocation not to put points into escapes because they were NOT going to be effective. Every decent fighter has at least sensational wrestling and d grapple and most have at least a high level brown belt. Based on FA's that I have picked up over the years, it's obvious not many people listened to me. But I thought that should've been fairly obvious to people that escapes were going to be a useless skill to waste points on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtieBanks Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 That's not true, we do both.... you're just remembering the big ones cos that's when you have to make changes. We've done plenty of smaller changes. This seems like a big one, i know you do minor tweaks here and there but this sounds like the baseball bat is coming out of the closet. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bwang Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 All the improvements sound good to me. Though I have only played for a year and a half. The main issue that I am aware of is ref standups happening too often. Especially right after attempted moves. The clinch game seems overpowered at the lower levels but apparently is underpowered at the higher levels. More value to elbow and knees might be nice. Escapes is one of those skills that I never train. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marky Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 No for skill redistribution. If you have a fighter with no escapes and still are unable to fight on the ground then that's too bad. Those people have already gotten so much extra advantage of having über standup skills in a standup era with that kind of skill distribution that if they need to be the ones that suffer a bit like the others did before them who had more versatile fighters, then so be it. No escapes? Learn the ground game as this is MMA Tycoon. 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortfuse122829 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 No for skill redistribution. If you have a striker with no escapes and still are unable to fight on the ground then that's too bad. Those people have already gotten so much extra advantage of having über standup skills in a standup era with that kind of skill distribution that if they need to be the ones that suffer a bit like the others did before them who had more versatile fighters, then so be it. No escapes? Learn the ground game as this is MMA Tycoon. You will just see another wave of people rage quit though like they did when tickers were implemented if there is a drastic change to how escapes success rate is calculated and now ground guys who don't have escapes have a guy get up every time they take him down because they have useless escapes (based on the previous calculation) & that becomes the major factor in success rate. Especially on older fighters who won't even have the opportunity to train that skill up in order to stop it. Half my roster would become utterly useless if that were to happen to be honest. i wouldn't care so much because most of those guys are mediocre on hiddens and the only reason they haven't been cut yet is because I wouldn't have any guys fighting in top orgs....which for me would be a death sentence in this game. So I don't really care too much right now about how much success or lack of success those guys have. I have accepted they are all gate-keepers anyway & am more focused on my next generation. But not everyone would be able to take it on the chin like that, so if a drastic change is made and you guys are cool w/ losing a ton of veteran managers who will have rage attacks then I'm fine w/ no distribution too lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 OK, so it looks like people are wanting a few tweaks to the fight engine, which I'm happy to do. The summary of what I've seen proposed: 1. Decrease standups. 2. Increase GNP land % and decrease damage from each GNP shot to compensate. 3. Decrease energy loss from failed takedowns. *N.B. People were actually calling for increased % of takedowns succeeding but I think this will be a better solution. 4. Easier to get into clinch and to break the clinch. 5. Clinch takedowns failing shouldn't break clinch quite as often. Everyone happy with that? Any additions / objections, please post below. Try and keep it brief but with some reasoning. Thanks! p.s. I have a question regarding standups... Is the problem A. Quick standups after a takedown. B. A while after the takedown it just becomes too hard to keep it on the ground. C. Both. At the moment we have a base value for standups that can get hit after e.g. 6 moves on the ground, so if you are really inactive for the first 6 moves you would get stood up. Then after each move we have an additional value that slowly builds up, so the more moves you have on the ground the move active you need to be to keep it there. I can adjust either of those factors. 1) Yes, Decrease standups as mentioned, the ratio is completely messed up. Some people actually use Lay n Pray as a true gameplan in real life. 2) GNP % should change based on the position you are in. As far as damage/accuracy slider, i would like this but what would happen when you get to full mount and went heavy accuracy? Maybe a posturing system? Because half guard and even full guard strikes can be vicious if your postured up. 3) I am unsure about this because i dont want people to spam takedowns again like they did before the last update. Maybe increase Counter Takedown effectiveness slightly. 4) I can agree with the clinch being easier to get into and out of with the addition of more failed takedowns resulting in clinches. Lower the effectiveness of punches in the clinch and raise the damage knees and elbows do in the clinch. This would get people out of dominating all clinches with just punches. 5) Agreed Regarding standups, both A and B are the issue. I dont want the game to be set where now the fight stays on the ground and this becomes grappling tycoon but i would like to see more balance. Just forcing people to earn standups rather than granting them should balance the game out. I understand the idea about expediting the escapes skill but the issue is that everyone has created their fighters and gyms based on skill cap without having escapes so that will cause confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtieBanks Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 You will just see another wave of people rage quit though like they did when tickers were implemented if there is a drastic change to how escapes success rate is calculated and now ground guys who don't have escapes have a guy get up every time they take him down because they have useless escapes (based on the previous calculation) & that becomes the major factor in success rate. Especially on older fighters who won't even have the opportunity to train that skill up in order to stop it. Half my roster would become utterly useless if that were to happen to be honest. i wouldn't care so much because most of those guys are mediocre on hiddens and the only reason they haven't been cut yet is because I wouldn't have any guys fighting in top orgs....which for me would be a death sentence in this game. So I don't really care too much right now about how much success or lack of success those guys have. I have accepted they are all gate-keepers anyway & am more focused on my next generation. But not everyone would be able to take it on the chin like that, so if a drastic change is made and you guys are cool w/ losing a ton of veteran managers who will have rage attacks then I'm fine w/ no distribution too lol Got it in one, people reacted to what the engine was at the time, you cannot fault them for doing that. It would mean another wave of would-be fighters go down the pan. These changes are being made to help the ground game again and try to re-balance the engine, there is no need to take the baseball bat to the paying customers because a skill which was completely useless is made relevant. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortfuse122829 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Got it in one, people reacted to what the engine was at the time, you cannot fault them for doing that. It would mean another wave of would-be fighters go down the pan. These changes are being made to help the ground game again and try to re-balance the engine, there is no need to take the baseball bat to the paying customers because a skill which was completely useless is made relevant. I didn't say you could blame them. I'm in complete agreement with you Dinooo. I am saying I personally wouldn't care so much because I have lost all faith in my "capped" fighters and have started to move my focus to the younger guys, who would have time to add those skills still. So if there WAS a drastic change in escapes I would be less likely to rage quit then others....because I have already accepted the fate of my developed guys. But the reason I would strongly advise re-allocation is because a lot of managers have fully developed rosters & guys who do not have escapes and you would basically break their ground fighters w/ that change (depending how drastic it was). So in the interest of not losing another wave of managers, I'd say it would be needed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjornmma1 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Why can't it just be set that the referee gives fighters more time on the ground to work? Won't that already solve a big part of the problem without having the problem of escapes being a problem to train ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marky Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 You will just see another wave of people rage quit though like they did when tickers were implemented if there is a drastic change to how escapes success rate is calculated and now ground guys who don't have escapes have a guy get up every time they take him down because they have useless escapes (based on the previous calculation) & that becomes the major factor in success rate. Especially on older fighters who won't even have the opportunity to train that skill up in order to stop it. Half my roster would become utterly useless if that were to happen to be honest. i wouldn't care so much because most of those guys are mediocre on hiddens and the only reason they haven't been cut yet is because I wouldn't have any guys fighting in top orgs....which for me would be a death sentence in this game. So I don't really care too much right now about how much success or lack of success those guys have. I have accepted they are all gate-keepers anyway & am more focused on my next generation. But not everyone would be able to take it on the chin like that, so if a drastic change is made and you guys are cool w/ losing a ton of veteran managers who will have rage attacks then I'm fine w/ no distribution too lol Surely the level of changes would still be quite moderate. I don't remember myself reading anywhere that you would need to have escapes to stop escapes. Of course a ground guy would have to accept that sometimes the escape guy gets the better of him and it's a standup, and that's the way it should be. At least in the wiki it says: "If you want to stop someone standing back up, you don't need to have escapes, you need wrestling, BJJ and defensive grappling." 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortfuse122829 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Surely the level of changes would still be quite moderate. I don't remember myself reading anywhere that you would need to have escapes to stop escapes. Of course a ground guy would have to accept that sometimes the escape guy gets the better of him and it's a standup, and that's the way it should be. At least in the wiki it says: "If you want to stop someone standing back up, you don't need to have escapes, you need wrestling, BJJ and defensive grappling." If you are going to fix escapes though I think that would have to change. That calculation is exactly why I never put escapes on a single 1 of my fighters & is also why I have never trained even 1 session of escapes. Every fighter at the top level has sensational to elite in those skills, so those skills being the major factor in the success rate of escapes gave me the foresight to not waste any points on that skill. If Mike were able to change the effectiveness of escapes and not change the calculation then I dunno that it really make that much of a difference, but I think those two things go hand in hand honestly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwad12345 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 No for skill redistribution. If you have a fighter with no escapes and still are unable to fight on the ground then that's too bad. Those people have already gotten so much extra advantage of having über standup skills in a standup era with that kind of skill distribution that if they need to be the ones that suffer a bit like the others did before them who had more versatile fighters, then so be it. No escapes? Learn the ground game as this is MMA Tycoon. So your solution is basically vengeance against the people who took everything into consideration and decided (correctly) against allocating escapes during the first reallocation by making certain old fighters useless? Again? I was under the impression that this update was meant to balance things and make the game more realistic and fair not punish people for avoiding hereto useless skills. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortfuse122829 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 So your solution is basically vengeance against the people who took everything into consideration and decided (correctly) against allocating escapes during the first reallocation by making certain old fighters useless? Again? I was under the impression that this update was meant to balance things and make the game more realistic and fair not punish people for avoiding hereto useless skills. Based on his last response I don't think that's what he was aiming for gwad.....I think he was saying if Mike didn't change the calculation on escapes and it was still determined by wrestling, BJJ and d. grapple and he just changed the success rate of them slightly, then it wouldn't make that drastic of a difference for fighters who still had useless escapes. My personal belief is that a change to how escapes is determined needs updated in which case it would be impossible really to not also allow people to put points in escapes if that were to happen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeaston Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Maybe it's because I've never had a elite fighter, but I still don't see a game where escapes are relevant. Sure make it so the refs don't stand up as much, but between two elite fighters who have already trained up defensive grappling and transitions how much does escapes really matter especially when everyone has at least sensational wrestling and a black belt? It's not like you are likely to submit or Tko that fighter on the ground anyway especially if they have a decent heart hidden. To me, by decreasing the amount of ref stand ups, it seems that fights are more likes to have people just laying on top of each other which leads to boring decisions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marky Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 So your solution is basically vengeance against the people who took everything into consideration and decided (correctly) against allocating escapes during the first reallocation by making certain old fighters useless? Again? I was under the impression that this update was meant to balance things and make the game more realistic and fair not punish people for avoiding hereto useless skills. Based on his last response I don't think that's what he was aiming for gwad.....I think he was saying if Mike didn't change the calculation on escapes and it was still determined by wrestling, BJJ and d. grapple and he just changed the success rate of them slightly, then it wouldn't make that drastic of a difference for fighters who still had useless escapes. My personal belief is that a change to how escapes is determined needs updated in which case it would be impossible really to not also allow people to put points in escapes if that were to happen Yeah Fuse got what I meant. Slight adjustments (if that's possible) that would not hurt the current fighters that badly, only go more towards what the escapes were meant to be in the first place. And most of my own guys have zero escapes too. If I need to fight on the ground then that's what I'll do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMATycoon Posted April 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Regarding training up escapes rather than a reallocation, it wouldn't make any difference if your guys are capped. If they are capped and you train escapes then whatever you gain in escapes just comes off your other skills... more from the stuff you didn't train for the longest. It just seems a much more organic way of going about things and much less dramatic. What's gunna happen if we have a 2 week reallocation period and you reallocate a load of points to escapes, then you decide you would rather still go with the control and hope for a standup method? You'll be pissed off again and it's much harder to reduce points than it is to gain them, especially if I make escapes train 3x as fast. It's also possible to dial things up over a period of time (in terms of the changes themselves), to ease the process in. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwad12345 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Ultimately I think drastically changing the system to make referee standups irrelevant and escapes a necessary skill for strikers would be the best thing for the game but if that all happens at once and we don't get a chance to reallocate points it will be too much of a shock. That is my position. Without a reallocation I think we'll see two things. 1) much less activity in the short term as everyone scrambles to build up escapes and 2) several veterans who only or predominantly have old fighters where training an entire new skill isnt really feasible will leave the game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeaston Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 If we are going to make escapes more relevant, wouldn't making increasing the training effectiveness of escapes be kinda cheating for younger fighters? I mean for me, most my guys are either 16,18, or 19. Technically if escapes got learned 3x as fast I could train them up in that time and never has to worrY about them again. Unless your going to somehow set a age limit or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeaston Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 And then wouldn't the ground game be utterly useless at the lower levels because now everybody would have high escapes? I think relocation balances the game more honestly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMATycoon Posted April 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 I get what you're saying and agree to an extent. In that case it would be possible to adjust the speed in relation to the fighter's total skills, so we could have higher skilled fighters train faster than lower skilled fighters. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingEpicity Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 I think it should be done in a sort of weening process. Lessen ref stand ups and give more to escapes but do it in two or three cycles. First three months only do about 50% of the full change you want to do and make learning escapes x3. After three months go to 75% of the full change you wanna make and make escapes x2 faster to learn. After the 6 month period make the change complete and make escapes learning speed back to normal. This should make the process a lot smoother without immediately fucking over the fighters with no escapes and give them time to train it while the change is subtitle being made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 And then wouldn't the ground game be utterly useless at the lower levels because now everybody would have high escapes? I think relocation balances the game more honestly. I dont know you but i was actually thinking the same thing since currently ground fighters can actually win as new builds. Before we continue this conversation about changing escapes and figuring out how to reallocate... How do we stop escapes? Skills etc? Figuring this out will probably help us figure out the right way to reallocate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 I think it should be done in a sort of weening process. Lessen ref stand ups and give more to escapes but do it in two or three cycles. First three months only do about 50% of the full change you want to do and make learning escapes x3. After three months go to 75% of the full change you wanna make and make escapes x2 faster to learn. After the 6 month period make the change complete and make escapes learning speed back to normal. This should make the process a lot smoother without immediately fucking over the fighters with no escapes and give them time to train it while the change is subtitle being made. I think this is the best suggestion on the escapes change so far, a sudden drastic change could back fire. Could have bad consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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