Fight Engine Discussion

[Mooncutter]

I actually agree with a lot of what you say.

 

I like a general cap also because it gives you more options on how to build your fighters. When you start breaking it up into caps for each little group then it narrows possibilities.

 

For instance if you had a seperate cap for physicals, primaries and secondaries then there will probably be 2 or 3 optimal strategies for physicals. 2 or 3 optimal strategies for primaries. And 2 or 3 optimal strategies for secondaries. In the end the ever evolving fight engine biases will always narrow those down to 1 or 2 legit builds. In the end most fighters are still going to look very similar because you've got them taped off into categories and ppl cant venture away from one another.

 

But if you had a general overall cap where points could be dispersed freely over an entire fighter. At that point you truly would see ppl working many different strategies and ideas. Because you wouldn't be gated off.

 

But im all for whichever gets implemented. Physical cap sounds fine to me. But I do think it would make more sense from a variety standpoint to do an overall cap as opposed to sectional cap.

 

That's exactly what I'm saying. It drastically removes possibility by isolating skill-areas from each other. I agree with commentator below that str and flex should counteract each pother somewhat. But so should str and cardio?

[edwardsfan]

yes it's like if you had to feed 10 chickens. You would see a lot more variety in the ways you could feed them if it was divided up by 10. Instead of groups of 3

[edwardsfan]

i actually had the idea this morning and I hope mike sees this.

 

Why not raise the cap on skills to 160?

 

That would create more diversity in fighters than anything else possibly ever could.

 

Just make elite broader.

 

Going back a few pages to mikes example of the fight engine. You could make 160v140 count for more of an advantage. To give ppl the incentive to place the time there.

 

Along with that, I still stand firm that I would eliminate the training curve. It hurts the game that you can gain 5 points training at woeful and .1 training at sensational.

 

Simply implement a training age where at different increments the speed falls off. Start out with each session giving .5 per session gain and go from there.

 

That way if you want to go straight to elite and have a single skilled fighter then there is no penalty for it. Or if you want to start out trying to balance a fighter out, then you can do that.

 

And 1500 sessions later you may have an elite, exceptional, superb, blue belt. But since training has slowed greatly you'll have a slow time getting to purple and beyond.

[edwardsfan]

The training curve is the only thing standing in the way of fighter variety.

 

That and the 150 max points ceiling.

 

When skills train fast at the low level and slow at the high level it drives ppl to point farm and create 4 x wonderful fighters.

 

You see all the time in the UFC that young fighters come in and will be sensational or elite in one area. And later on they'll become complete fighters.

 

In MMATycoon that process is reversed. Everyone is 4 x wonderful at the beginning and later on tries to push the final points up to sensational or elite.

 

Elimination of the training curve fixes that

[SeanJuan]

I am against it. I want to be able to massage the odds in my favor. I don't always set them, but they add a layer to scouting opponents that is fun for me.

Yes, I enjoy this aspect of it. I think of it as another layer to the sliders, not a way of getting away with not setting others well. I think hiddens can (and should) impact the effect this has, but it would seem silly that (extreme example here) if I know my opponent is going to throw 100% leg kicks because he's done nothing but for his previous 10 fights, I can't do something to factor this in.

[Timmy]

Hi,

I came late and tried to read the whole thread in one sitting.

I can see people have put much more thought into it than I have but this is my opinion in the time I have...

 

Separating physicals sounds good.

 

Mike's instinct to cut fighter skills for variety is correct IMO and I only wish he would make a 20/25% cut and have done with it.

 

I think adding "clinch takedowns" and "clinch takedown defence" isn't very elegant. Sounds horrible.

In fact, I would remove a skill by merging knees/elbows to improve them as alternative to punch in the clinch (this will somewhat counter the lower cap limit by ruducing the number of seconaries back down to twelve).

 

I would address any issues of striker/grappler balance using engine tweaks (rather than trying to balance the number of skills strikers and grapplers need).

 

Thanks. Just making my "vote".

[JB90]

Just tried reading up on this and also only been playing the game a few weeks so feel free to tell me my opinion is useless. I love this game I'm logging in a few times a day and I have one fighter who improves every training session and I want him to be elite in all his skills , but that kind of makes me dislike the game too . It's stupid in having a fighter elite at everything, maybe there should be a cap of only having one skill elite. Can anyone name a fighter who is elite at everything ? Should be upto the manager to decide what the fighter will be elite at then the rest should be a limit. There's no fun in fighting someone who's amazing at everything. I just fought a guy who was rubish on the ground so I exploited that , just like in real life. Every fighter has a weakness it's upto the manager and coaches to think of a winning game plan against any kind of fighter. Matt brown v Damien maia. A brawler v a bjj, the best game plan won . Once again I'm just a newbie but I'm having more fun at perfecting a game plan than just hoping my hidden stats are better than my opponeant.

 

 

This could lead to fighters rejecting to fights . Make them lose hype and popularity for turning down a fight just like in real life. Maybe even a fine if they keep turning down fights and the fine increases .

 

 

Sorry for my spelling it's not a strong point .

[JB90]

Actually seems more fun to be fighting against new fighters as there is no fighter the same . Look at the top 100 fighters and there elite in everything. Just relying on hiddens and no skill or planning . Seems like it would go boring .

[MrGoodkat209]

I thought it might be cool if you had separate skills for takedowns on outside and from clinch. Then you could make the fighter more judo/sambo style rather than wrestler.

[KingEpicity]

Actually seems more fun to be fighting against new fighters as there is no fighter the same . Look at the top 100 fighters and there elite in everything. Just relying on hiddens and no skill or planning . Seems like it would go boring .

 

Actually the top 100 fighters all have excellent hiddens and great managers. Thus it's almost all slider skills and scouting at the meta of the game.

[PBR]

 

Actually the top 100 fighters all have excellent hiddens and great managers. Thus it's almost all slider skills and scouting at the meta of the game.

personally i feel its more the power of the rng than sliders -- no matter how perfect your sliders are set if the rng doesnt favor you, your done

[edwardsfan]

RNG?

[juicemalone]

Yes, I enjoy this aspect of it. I think of it as another layer to the sliders, not a way of getting away with not setting others well. I think hiddens can (and should) impact the effect this has, but it would seem silly that (extreme example here) if I know my opponent is going to throw 100% leg kicks because he's done nothing but for his previous 10 fights, I can't do something to factor this in.

My issue is intelligence is not factored in heavily enough. Stupid fighters shouldn't be able to take advantage of this feature that much.

[juicemalone]

I thought it might be cool if you had separate skills for takedowns on outside and from clinch. Then you could make the fighter more judo/sambo style rather than wrestler.

There are tons of wrestling techniques from clinch too though...

 

It's still a good idea and could be implemented maybe, but the best way to give takedowns more of a judo/sambo feel is to add a dmg/acc slider for take downs. High dmg would mean your guy goes for more big time throws and suplexes. High accuracy would be reserved for those trips into half guard and stuff.

[madbob]

RNG?

 

random generator

 

factor luck in the game engine

[MMATycoon]

I completely agree. The only physicals that should be capped seperately are strength and flex. You should not be able to get elite in both.

I like the primaries at 1.3 idea. I would argue for a much lower overall cap, but then put physicals at like 0.8. Anyone can obtain great physicals in real life. But not everyone can obtain elite fighting skills. I know i could train CT and get muscular and fast, but no amount of training would get me anywhere near cage fighting level. That is just a different beast.

So with slow learners, they may not reach elite fighting skills, but theres no reason they cant reach high physical skills.

Lifting weights doesnt requite a fighting iq.

 

That would be fine if people actually had different physical builds but basically everyone is exactly the same give or take 10% here or there, so the whole concept of physicals just becomes totally redundant.

[Guest]

So when are physicals getting chopped?

[ArtieBanks]

This physicals thing is not a great idea, actually its a terrible idea. As I have already said to Mike, over the past perhaps 3/4 years he has been making modifications on his game engine based on fighters having these elite physicals, during the PM's he never suggested that he hasn't. Heavyweight fighting is prolly at its best it has been for a while, gassing isn't the deathblow it once was. Now you take the fighters cardio and drop it 4 levels, what do you think is going to happen? Race to the gas all over again. No sliders verity, just simple aggro damage body kicks and body punches, it gives you a decent chance of winning, nothing is certain in this game but with those sliders back then, you won.

 

Now me personally, I add on physicals now from a younger age with a fighter, so I have now spent the past 6/9 months training fighters with about 2/3 months of that dedicated pretty much to physicals. I'll have lost most of this training time and will now have to spend more time training the physicals to certain points so it isn't just all the same across. I just spent 6/9 months training these guys and they are now just starting to fight and I have to pull them out again for another month? Lose more actual fighting time with them because why? Verity? Nah.

 

This thing saying it will cause more verity in creating fighters, it will create less verity in setting sliders, and eventually people will be wise to what combo of skills is overpowered and use that until its nerfed. So in actual fact you are taking away verity because for me most of the fun in this game is scouting and setting sliders, its how you win fights. By now most people create projects, they keep the ones with solid chin, granite chin or KO power, they then train them up to be a striker or a grappler with a special ability. Like a striker with knees in the clinch and submissions, or a grappler with submissions etc, there is actually a decent verity of fighters to create already. Right now, this game doesn't need any of that.

 

Lets talk about what the game does need, right now most returning vets or vets that have recently lost a majority of their roster don't like the fact that the game takes a long time to build a fighter. There is a quick fix to that, and its rather realistic; learning speed stays consistent through out a fighters career. Learning speed capping was good for when they weren't a skills cap in place, now there is one and there is a way for fighters to degrade at a certain age, do we really need it to be capped? You could give some more points at creation in order for fighters to get fighting quicker and perhaps it doesn't take a real life year for fighters to become decent. It will solve the problem without ruining fighters who have already been created, it just means that when the next round of fighters you need to create comes up that they will be able to take to the cage sooner.

 

This next one though should be at the very top of the things in this game to fix; the orgs. In October of 2012, an org managed a 1003 event and broke the org game. We are now in June 2016 and 1003 events are common and fairly simple to do at the top level of the game to the point that org owners no longer have anything to aim for. It also fucked the game economy in a way that will prolly never be fixed due to the length of time this was allowed to continue until new businesses etc open up. I have begged for years for Mike to fix it, but he never has. Surely now in 2016, it is the time to fix the org game and finally make it interesting again and give org owners goals to shoot for. People ask why isn't events hyped anymore, part of that is because back in the day people wondered what the event rating would be, would a record be broken etc, its now all the same. There is other things which need looked at such as how powerful escapes are etc, but for now I really just want the orgs fixed, it was prolly the most fun I have had in the game owning an org but the fun was sucked out of it when there was no challenges left to do.

[Guest]

Not only that but you have guys with 15 cardio who will suddenly drop to 10 1/2 and are close to weight BEFORE... well if they got a fight the next day after the chop hello NC's. Frankly leave the physicals alone.. or make them more of a difference, maybe 15 vs 15++ is a decent bit of difference in the engine.

[762x39]

I agree with Dino, I like the way things are now. I don't want the physicals cut or the skill cap lower. I like that you can build how you want and have enough points to make them good at more than one thing. I like that it comes down to game plan, sliders, and some luck. I think the counter takedowns off leg kicks helped. Maybe make the small changes to escapes and let the rest ride and see what happens.

 

As for the ORGS I have no idea about that, never had one and never will. To much work, I will stick with my gym.

[GBK16]

I'd say you should throw up a poll to get a view of what people think on this. Tbh, when I first heard the physical cap, it sounded interesting, but I didn't expect you to cut it all the way down to 70% which equated to 105 across, which is Remarkable +. When I heard it, I expected a cut maybe down to 80% (120 across, or Exceptional --) so if you wanted to get an Elite Physical, another Physical would have had to drop down to Remarkable.

 

The current plan isn't something that looks like it will be good, and it is going to affect some of the younger fighters who have focussed on Physicals up to this point, like for example I have a young fighter who currently has Elite physicals across and he had to spend 2/3 months getting them there. He is essentially losing that training time, which will put him from in the mix with other fighters he could compete with, to being way down the queue in terms of how developed overall he is. I'm a bit alarmed at how quick Mike was to be willing to go with this plan without throwing up a poll while he requires one for something that doesn't affect the entire game like "Should Non-VIP's see how many are in a training session?"

 

 

Edit - Also on the topic of what Dino said about orgs, I think adjusting it a bit would help to make things interesting again, although a lot of it was also that the game back then when everything was news had guys who were very good at hyping a lot of stuff up and everything was fresh to everyone. Either way, if something were to happen I think the org game will gain some interest again as people seek to break new records. I achieved pretty much all I wanted (Get to #1 ranked, get a 1003 event rating and consistently run successful 3 hour PPV's) so I would be up for having some new targets to achieve.

[Bwang]

I keep making this point: reducing skills or physicals or whatever won't make variety. There will still be an ultimate build. It'll just be shitter than the builds are now.

 

Keeping learning speed constant is a good idea. This is a loooong game.

 

Good points Dino. Although the org point passed me by.

 

Personally I think the prediction sliders and buzz were a huge waste of money and time from the creator(s). And I wouldn't have voted for them in a poll.

[kdmh74]

OK guys. How does this skills cap work exactly? Is there a separate cap for Physicals, Primaries and Secondaries, where you ca have 70% of the total points in each category? Or, is the 70% cap spread across the board. Sorry if this has been described somewhere else, if so, ive overlooked it. Just like to say, some peoples understanding of this game blows me away. Im still fairly new to the game so my understanding is still quite limited. Im far from thick, but even after years of playing, I still wouldnt understand it as much as some of you guys

[ArtieBanks]

OK guys. How does this skills cap work exactly? Is there a separate cap for Physicals, Primaries and Secondaries, where you ca have 70% of the total points in each category? Or, is the 70% cap spread across the board. Sorry if this has been described somewhere else, if so, ive overlooked it. Just like to say, some peoples understanding of this game blows me away. Im still fairly new to the game so my understanding is still quite limited. Im far from thick, but even after years of playing, I still wouldnt understand it as much as some of you guys

 

The current cap which is in place is a 70-72% cap or somewhere along those lines of total skills. What I mean by total skills is physicals, primes and seconds all combined, which by the time your fighter peaks should be around the 70% - 72% overall.

 

This one is aimed at the doctor because I forgot to multi quote but that shit you brought up about the weight cutting was a very valid point and one I hadn't thought about. It actually opens up another Pandora's box, but that shit is a bunch of mathematics I'd rather not get into at this late hour.

[duphus]

I haven't said a word, mostly because I'm half way out of the game anyways but here are some things that should really be done:

 

1. Primes should be a collective skill of your related secondary skills. This means you can't be elite in BJJ if you have no subs and similar on M/T if you have no elbow's/knee's and wrestling if you have no TD or GnP.

 

A. That in it's self will stop at lot of things people complain about, you can't have elite wrestling on a brawl and sprawl guy to help defend takedowns because you can't be elite wrestling without TD's and GnP and all of it's associated secondaries. it's gonna be hard to stop TD's if you don't have them or GnP just do to the wrestling prime. Say if you have only elite TDD and elite Grap D like many sprawl and brawl stand up guys do, then your only gonna be exceptional in the wrestling prime, How far will that go in allowing actual grapplers to get TD's more often?

 

B. It would make match up much more easy for orgs as you have a better idea of there skills if the secondary skills sets the prime value.

 

C. Under this system, Sparring can't add points to your prime directly only to all associated secondaries sort of like it does now but no added points to the prime. Your prime will be determined by that secondaries (Obviously, this would need to be decided about and I have no idea or claim to know what levels of secs total should be what level of prime)

 

D We all know being elite in a prime purely for a defensive purpose is an advantage and this would stop that.

 

 

My 2 cents and I will shut up

 

If you do a physical cap, for the love of God start small as you can always go more if needed. But I think it's going to hurt more then it helps if you go to far. I'm Not keen on the whole Idea of it to start with.