Fight Engine Discussion

[MMATycoon]

This cap thing I've mentioned isn't meant to be solving every long term issue; I was just showing how we could work the caps without having to add in the two added skills right now.

 

FWIW, I would be very surprised if people just go exceptional across the board on primaries.

[Kronix]

I'm always for changes, in the long run it's better for the game. I just sincerely hope that they will tested out prior to being implemented as with past experience, the updates have not always gone so smooth as one could hope. I've just spent about 1,5 years rebuilding my fighters and I'm closing in where i can pickup where I left off before and don't think I have it in me to go through that process one more time. So again, changes are good but please make careful considerations and preferably test them out first in a proper maner.

[Rambo]

 

Desperate?

 

I would call it smart. It's the best possible way to test two fighters(if they are identical) and all it takes is a loss on your record. Better than QFCing a loss and only getting about half of the information for each fighter. I don't see anything wrong with it. Also there is nothing wrong with creating a fighter at 280, 290 etc etc. Once again it's about being smart and not falling behind on training when you go into an org at that ID range. Down the line hiddens and sliders are what's going to matter but early on(if you are fighting at ages 18-20 for instance) fighting a guy with more training is a huge disadvantage.

 

Any newbies reading... Don't let this guy dissuade you from making sound decisions on the pretext of desperation.

 

It's just the difference between wanting a guy to compete early on his career and possibly be a champion in an ID org or a long term project who is only going to fight a few times in his early years.

 

 

 

 

The fighter rollover is too slow and the training is as well though.

 

You would call it smart. Imo it's not only desperate, it's very lazy. Setting up a QFC vs your friend? Slightly shady, but legal. Setting up "QFC" vs yourself in your buds org... even lazier and desperate project farming attempt. It's a shady but legal Moyses Mottis (or wtf his name is) move.

 

Everybody knows that hiddens make or break the fighter after their capped out, and nobody wants to spend 6 months to 2 years only to find out their granite chin, 7.0 learning speed gym rat, is a heartless, no confidence blunder. Or their 7.0 learning fighter is a chinless fucker.

A lot of people, myself included, have tried to cut corners. It's not a sign of intelligence. If fighter rollover was quicker, and training speed was quicker, people wouldn't be so desperate to resort to tactics like that.

 

This is why guys like Avon will always be GOAT status. Didn't do that shit in the early days. Pretty sure project farming like that would of got you labeled and pitchfork'd.

 

 

 

Fighter rollover should be much quicker. You shouldn't have to wait an entire year and a half before your fighter can compete in a top 10 org. That's not an attractive business model.

[sabaton]

Clinch takedown O and D would be HORRIBLE.

What's next? Splitting kicks into head/body/leg?

Punches into jab/cross/hook/uppercut?

 

I'm sorry but a takedown is a takedown and takedown D is takedown D. It doesn't matter if you are in the middle of the cage or next to it.

[MMATycoon]

I'm sorry but a takedown is a takedown and takedown D is takedown D. It doesn't matter if you are in the middle of the cage or next to it.

 

I'm totally fine with anyone who doesn't want them in the game but in terms of real life MMA, it couldn't be further from the truth.

[762x39]

I do like a lot of the ideas that have been mentioned. So please don't think I am just being a jerk and shooting down everything. I like the ideas of speeding up training, either just the learning speed or more sessions or how ever you decide to do it. Hell both would probably work to.

 

I like the new GNP slider idea, both damage/accurate or head/body again whatever you decide or both. I like making counter takedowns easier off missed kicks. I do think escapes are to strong and should be lower. I do think ref standups should be lower. Almost everything that has been mentioned are good adds.

 

I just don't like lowering the skill cap. Or changing it to more points for primary skills. I do think the physical cap sounds good, I just think whatever you set it at take that off the other cap and leave the other points alone. That sounds bad but I don't know how to explain it better. Say your current cap is 2650 take 350 points off for physicals then make the other cap 2300 but keep primary and secondary skill points the same value. Just my feeling on it.

 

I know I keep saying this but I think if you want to make a big improvement to the game the corner men are the way to go. Some don't have PA's now so maybe even let you use a current fighter as a corner man for a different fighter. Let their experience and IQ dictate how much adjustment they can help make between rounds. Then base how much the fighter listens to it based off their IQ.

 

I am sure that would be a pain but would be a huge add to it.

[shortfuse122829]

 

You would call it smart. Imo it's not only desperate, it's very lazy. Setting up a QFC vs your friend? Slightly shady, but legal. Setting up "QFC" vs yourself in your buds org... even lazier and desperate project farming attempt. It's a shady but legal Moyses Mottis (or wtf his name is) move.

 

Everybody knows that hiddens make or break the fighter after their capped out, and nobody wants to spend 6 months to 2 years only to find out their granite chin, 7.0 learning speed gym rat, is a heartless, no confidence blunder. Or their 7.0 learning fighter is a chinless fucker.

A lot of people, myself included, have tried to cut corners. It's not a sign of intelligence. If fighter rollover was quicker, and training speed was quicker, people wouldn't be so desperate to resort to tactics like that.

 

This is why guys like Avon will always be GOAT status. Didn't do that shit in the early days. Pretty sure project farming like that would of got you labeled and pitchfork'd.

 

 

 

Fighter rollover should be much quicker. You shouldn't have to wait an entire year and a half before your fighter can compete in a top 10 org. That's not an attractive business model.

 

 

I'm in total agreement on what you and Edsfan are saying but I know Mike has said he's going to add a 3rd training session a day and wouldn't that alone make learning faster? By 1.5x? I dread having to do rebuilds though. I mean typically my build is 110 MT, 110 kicks, 110 clinch, 110 TDD/Strike def I do a hidden test, then I train punches, TDD/Strike def, d grapple and physicals all to about wonderful before I really start fighting on a monthly basis. I may take a fight here and there just to see if any other hiddens pop. So that's 3 secondaries and all physicals to wonderful before I really fight, which is on an average learner about 225 sessions. 50 for secondaries and 75 for physicals.

 

So at 11 sessions per week which is what an 18 year old who puts at least strong cardio at creation on a supplement can train, you're investing 20 RL weeks into this fighter just to get the basic sprawl and brawl skills and physicals to wonderful (doesn't even include transitions). And really in most cases I haven't learned shit about my fighter yet because I have maybe 4-5 fights by the time he's ready to fight on a monthly basis. The early fights I'm usually pretty successful at so I don't really start to see the flaws in my fighters until I'm 9-12 months into training him. About 50% of the time your fighters are duds, so you have to cut and start this process over again. It just makes overhauling your roster such a terrible experience & when a few of your guys turn into duds it can be a bit of a blow to your "fun factor" because you know that the next 9 months may lead to a 75% bust rate too

[Timqwe]

Clinch takedown O and D would be HORRIBLE.

What's next? Splitting kicks into head/body/leg?

Punches into jab/cross/hook/uppercut?

 

I'm sorry but a takedown is a takedown and takedown D is takedown D. It doesn't matter if you are in the middle of the cage or next to it.

Clinch takedowns and shoot takedowns are very much different. You can't trip someone from 5 feet away, nor hiptoss him.

[Rambo]

 

 

I'm in total agreement on what you and Edsfan are saying but I know Mike has said he's going to add a 3rd training session a day and wouldn't that alone make learning faster? By 1.5x? I dread having to do rebuilds though. I mean typically my build is 110 MT, 110 kicks, 110 clinch, 110 TDD/Strike def I do a hidden test, then I train punches, TDD/Strike def, d grapple and physicals all to about wonderful before I really start fighting on a monthly basis. I may take a fight here and there just to see if any other hiddens pop. So that's 3 secondaries and all physicals to wonderful before I really fight, which is on an average learner about 225 sessions. 50 for secondaries and 75 for physicals.

 

So at 11 sessions per week which is what an 18 year old who puts at least strong cardio at creation on a supplement can train, you're investing 20 RL weeks into this fighter just to get the basic sprawl and brawl skills and physicals to wonderful (doesn't even include transitions). And really in most cases I haven't learned shit about my fighter yet because I have maybe 4-5 fights by the time he's ready to fight on a monthly basis. The early fights I'm usually pretty successful at so I don't really start to see the flaws in my fighters until I'm 9-12 months into training him. About 50% of the time your fighters are duds, so you have to cut and start this process over again. It just makes overhauling your roster such a terrible experience & when a few of your guys turn into duds it can be a bit of a blow to your "fun factor" because you know that the next 9 months may lead to a 75% bust rate too

 

3rd training session creates even more micromanaging bs this game doesn't need. It's taking a step in the chore direction and less in the game direction.

 

Not only do you have to set an extra session per every fighter, you have to set those sessions for every coach. Very tedious. Micromanaging.

 

#trainingtycoon

#flyingfightertycoon

[edwardsfan]

Remove diminishing returns on training. I never understood why you would gain 5 points in a session at woeful and only half a point from a session at sensational?

 

You want to know why ppl even their fighters out? It's because the game logic forces you to.

 

You could spend fuck all amount of time going for elite. Or you could train a skill up until it starts getting really slow and then move on to something else...then when all the skills get trained up decently high, then you can go back and try to train some skills up to the higher levels that take longer .

 

But if the skill cap was lowered and then it was made easier to get to elite then you'd see ppl start training high in a single skill vs just trying to accumulate as many points as possible

[KingEpicity]

 

You would call it smart. Imo it's not only desperate, it's very lazy. Setting up a QFC vs your friend? Slightly shady, but legal. Setting up "QFC" vs yourself in your buds org... even lazier and desperate project farming attempt. It's a shady but legal Moyses Mottis (or wtf his name is) move.

 

Everybody knows that hiddens make or break the fighter after their capped out, and nobody wants to spend 6 months to 2 years only to find out their granite chin, 7.0 learning speed gym rat, is a heartless, no confidence blunder. Or their 7.0 learning fighter is a chinless fucker.

A lot of people, myself included, have tried to cut corners. It's not a sign of intelligence. If fighter rollover was quicker, and training speed was quicker, people wouldn't be so desperate to resort to tactics like that.

 

This is why guys like Avon will always be GOAT status. Didn't do that shit in the early days. Pretty sure project farming like that would of got you labeled and pitchfork'd.

 

 

 

Fighter rollover should be much quicker. You shouldn't have to wait an entire year and a half before your fighter can compete in a top 10 org. That's not an attractive business model.

 

Yeah that's definitely YOUR opinion, I have never seen anyone bitch about it before now and I asked around before I ever did it. You just said yourself this game is the longest game ever so I don't see the problem in facing off projects vs each other to test hiddens rather than throwing them in QFCs, just seems to me you dislike it and therefore it's desperate in your squinty eyes. So far you're the first person I have seen say anything about it. Yeah I don't want to wait months and months just to find out my guy is complete shit. I would rather get a few extra notes from the first fight and take another loss on my shitty record. It's not much different than throwing them into a QFC fight except you know which of the two fighters you have are shittier. I am breaking no rules and no one has ever mentioned this as shady or frowned upon.

[Rambo]

 

Yeah that's definitely YOUR opinion, I have never seen anyone bitch about it before now and I asked around before I ever did it. You just said yourself this game is the longest game ever so I don't see the problem in facing off projects vs each other to test hiddens rather than throwing them in QFCs, just seems to me you dislike it and therefore it's desperate in your squinty eyes. So far you're the first person I have seen say anything about it. Yeah I don't want to wait months and months just to find out my guy is complete shit. I would rather get a few extra notes from the first fight and take another loss on my shitty record. It's not much different than throwing them into a QFC fight except you know which of the two fighters you have are shittier. I am breaking no rules and no one has ever mentioned this as shady or frowned upon.

 

You sound like a little bitch here. Funniest part is I didn't realize you were one of the people that were testing his fighters against each other lol. Your desperation is stinking up the room.

 

That's not my point, my point is the game is so damn slow, that people have become so desperate to test fighters and score a "hidden beast" that they set up fights vs themself rather than testing their guy out in a new org vs other new fighters for X amount of fights. It's sad and not much better than Moyses project farming. #trainingtycoon

[edwardsfan]

Training just gets too slow at the high levels.

 

Ex: exceptional, sensational, elite

 

Remove the training wall at exceptional

 

That is the only way to PROMOTE fighter diversity.

 

Allow ppl to train the fighters to look how they want. Not how the game steers them to look

[shockg]

 

UniConor (I think), brought up clinch positions. I think maybe that could be a long term job but it would be a massive job. Lots of programming for the fight engine and also writing probably 1000 new lines of commentary for all the different positions. I had to have a triple chocolate chip cookie just to calm myself down after thinking about it

Mmm cookie! That will ease the pain my man!

[edwardsfan]

Increased moral dump for excessive training - promote fight, train, fight, train template

[edwardsfan]

take time out of equation - keep tally of sessions trained and drop learning speed at intervals

 

ex: 50 sessions, 100 sessions, 200 sessions, 400 sessions - that eliminates the need to spam train

 

 

 

#trainingtycoon

#waitingtycoon

[Guest]

take time out of equation - keep tally of sessions trained and drop learning speed at intervals

 

ex: 50 sessions, 100 sessions, 200 sessions, 400 sessions - that eliminates the need to spam train

 

 

 

#trainingtycoon

#waitingtycoon

Won't that increase spam rather than reduce it? If you only have 50 or 100 sessions at max speed you'd want to focus your skills as much as possible. I don't think spam training is a problem anyway. The ground game needs to be tweaked - more action on the ground/less escapes + ref standups and the game itself needs a boost in speed so people don't give up if they have to replace their roster at some point.

[edwardsfan]

Won't that increase spam rather than reduce it? If you only have 50 or 100 sessions at max speed you'd want to focus your skills as much as possible. I don't think spam training is a problem anyway. The ground game needs to be tweaked - more action on the ground/less escapes + ref standups and the game itself needs a boost in speed so people don't give up if they have to replace their roster at some point.

No, actually it would solve the problem.

 

You see now it's based on time. Every day that goes by your fighter trains a little bit slower. So you don't want to waste that valuable time in the beginning when the learning is good, by resting after a fight.

 

If you based it off of sessions trained then there would be no downfall to fighting early.

 

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 fight rest rest rest rest 8 9 10 fight rest rest 11 12 13 etc...

 

 

 

And by spam training i am not talking about training the same skill repeatedly. I am referring to creating a fighter and spamming training for 6 months straight because you are against the clock

[edwardsfan]

Another option is pausing training speed degradation if you're resting from a fight.

 

My entire emphasis is fighting at an early age should not be a penalty. The only penalty for fighting should be losing and injury.

 

 

 

It doesn't matter to me really how it's fixed. Just as long as it's fixed. The game logic steers you to project fighters and it's a real sucky aspect of the game.

[edwardsfan]

Won't that increase spam rather than reduce it? If you only have 50 or 100 sessions at max speed you'd want to focus your skills as much as possible. I don't think spam training is a problem anyway. The ground game needs to be tweaked - more action on the ground/less escapes + ref standups and the game itself needs a boost in speed so people don't give up if they have to replace their roster at some point.

And also that's why I said there should be no training wall at exceptional. It forces ppl to #pointfarm rather than trying to specialize.

[edwardsfan]

I think the problem with MMATycoon is that it ironically is socialist form of rules. If you try to train to elite then you get diminishing returns. You are much better off to spread the training around and make all skills equal

 

#socialisttycoon

[JLP]

Lowering the cap kills two birds with one stone. In conjunction with a slight engine tweak, it will allow grapplers to be a little more viable at the top level (I know a lot of others don't see it, but I am pretty confident that will be the result and I really dont want to give away my thought process either so I'm not interested in convincing anyone). Lowering the cap will also allow fighters to fight at the top level at a younger age. Right now you can ease into the top orgs around 25-26 (or 28+ if you like to tuck it and hide out in ID orgs). With a lower cap you will be able to get into a top org 23-24, which is far closer to RL then the current system.

 

I think Mike's ideas have been pretty solid and the tweaks will balance out gameplay and provide a lot more fun. Seems like a no-brainer to me, I just wish they happened a little more often.

[YerMaw]

I think the problem with MMATycoon is that it ironically is socialist form of rules. If you try to train to elite then you get diminishing returns. You are much better off to spread the training around and make all skills equal

 

#socialisttycoon

It would be an American saying this...

 

To address your 'point': of course it takes time to train skills up to elite, it's not realistic to have everyone running around with elite secondary skills within a couple of months of creation

 

Put it this way: it took one of my faster learners 5 sessions to go from remarkable > wonderful - if you remove diminishing returns above that point it would take him approx. 15 sessions to reach elite.

 

In other words the three secondary skills I invested 110 points at the beginning, it would take roughly around three and a half weeks to get them all up to elite under your system.

 

No offence, but it's a dumb idea. The changes to the physical cap should already make a big difference to the age at which projects are ready to compete in top orgs, but removing diminishing returns for training? Nah, not unless you want 20/21yr olds rocking up to the big orgs and putting a beating down on 30yr old veterans - all this would achieve is pissing off managers who have spent a lot of time training up those skills in your desire for instant gratification.

[Guest]

No, actually it would solve the problem.

 

You see now it's based on time. Every day that goes by your fighter trains a little bit slower. So you don't want to waste that valuable time in the beginning when the learning is good, by resting after a fight.

 

If you based it off of sessions trained then there would be no downfall to fighting early.

 

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 fight rest rest rest rest 8 9 10 fight rest rest 11 12 13 etc...

 

 

 

And by spam training i am not talking about training the same skill repeatedly. I am referring to creating a fighter and spamming training for 6 months straight because you are against the clock

It doesn't make any sense to me to leave time out of the equation otherwise in extreme cases you could end up with a 33 year old fighter that has just been used to fight in qfc's or fight every week in a small ID org with the training speed of an 18 year old or an FA with a granite chin from a manager that went inactive still with an 18 year old's training speed. If he's been left on the shelf for 9 months(3 game years) why should he still have the learning speed he was created with? Sounds like it could cause all sorts of problems.

I think the problem with MMATycoon is that it ironically is socialist form of rules. If you try to train to elite then you get diminishing returns. You are much better off to spread the training around and make all skills equal

 

#socialisttycoon

It's just a natural progression and the same in real life. When you train something it is pretty easy to pick up at first and as you progress to harder/higher levels it takes longer and more effort. If there were no diminishing returns to train to elite then I could see a lot more people not fighting until their main secondaries were elite. Yes I agree the game should be made a bit quicker but not by handing it to everyone on a plate, there should be some reward for those willing to put in the work.

It's difficult to tell which point I'm addressing here with you posting so many posts at once and replying to different posts with different points of view. On one hand you want to have fighters get in the cage earlier but on the other you want them to get to Elite quicker. These are 2 very different choices in the game. Some people enjoy fighting in the lower tiers in the early stages and some other prefer to get that out of the way as quickly as possible to fight at the upper levels of the game. I don't think you can come up with a quick fix both nor do I think it's a problem to be honest. At the moment the game caters for different views or choices for what you do with your fighter, why change that? A yes to a speed boost yes but a no to make the game easier.

[edwardsfan]

I do not think removing the training wall is giving anything away. If you remove the training wall in correlation with reducing the skill cap then you create a "free world" concept with diverse fighters