Fight Engine Discussion

[Rambo]

I HIGHLY DISAGREE WITH THAT LOAD OF CRAP YOU JUST SPEWED

 

Clinch takedown DOES need to be a thing... obviously, you have never fought or trained a day in your life, clinch takedown defense is COMPLETELY different from sprawling against an opponent attempting a takedown with space between you two. Also, clinch takedowns (sweeps, trips, position changes) are completely different than open space takedowns... WTF??? Are you mental? If we are going for realism, YES THEY ARE NEEDED.

Somebody failed the IQ test.

[Shards]

I HIGHLY DISAGREE WITH THAT LOAD OF CRAP YOU JUST SPEWED

 

Clinch takedown DOES need to be a thing... obviously, you have never fought or trained a day in your life, clinch takedown defense is COMPLETELY different from sprawling against an opponent attempting a takedown with space between you two. Also, clinch takedowns (sweeps, trips, position changes) are completely different than open space takedowns... WTF??? Are you mental? If we are going for realism, YES THEY ARE NEEDED.

What do you train? You can debate a power double(and I still disagree) but if you're not close enough to grab your opponent you shouldn't be looking for a takedown. The only difference between clitched and standing takedowns are if you've tied up yet.

 

Nothing else changes, if you shoot on someone who knows what they're doing from greater then an arms length out they should be able to stop you everytime unless you're crazy gifted.

[imcool]

What do you train? You can debate a power double(and I still disagree) but if you're not close enough to grab your opponent you shouldn't be looking for a takedown. The only difference between clitched and standing takedowns are if you've tied up yet.

 

Nothing else changes, if you shoot on someone who knows what they're doing from greater then an arms length out they should be able to stop you everytime unless you're crazy gifted.

 

He trains UFC, obviously...

[bobloblaw]

No he's talking wrestling fundamentals. Takedown 101

[SavageMMa]

What do you train? You can debate a power double(and I still disagree) but if you're not close enough to grab your opponent you shouldn't be looking for a takedown. The only difference between clitched and standing takedowns are if you've tied up yet.

 

Nothing else changes, if you shoot on someone who knows what they're doing from greater then an arms length out they should be able to stop you everytime unless you're crazy gifted.

I train a lot of different martial arts and have at least tried or learned about every martial art there is... Mostly kickboxing but I did 4 years of wrestling (who hasn't though?) and have done jiu jitsu on and off for years... the takedowns are completely different, especially when you introduce trips, arm drags, and hip tosses... I have said in many forum posts that I am an amateur mixed martial artist. Not only do I have years of experience training but I have first hand cage fighting experience (even if I didn't do the best). I can sprawl against almost any body unless they have like 100 lbs on me but if we are clinched up, you're going to most likely take me down anybody who has trained or has experience would tell you that it's much different shooting a takedown and chaining together takedowns.

[SavageMMa]

 

He trains UFC, obviously...

LMAO!!! I know you're joking but the ignorance... hahaha

[SavageMMa]

Somebody failed the IQ test.

114 is pretty decent but okay

[SavageMMa]

What do you train? You can debate a power double(and I still disagree) but if you're not close enough to grab your opponent you shouldn't be looking for a takedown. The only difference between clitched and standing takedowns are if you've tied up yet.

 

Nothing else changes, if you shoot on someone who knows what they're doing from greater then an arms length out they should be able to stop you everytime unless you're crazy gifted.

You actually proved me right with that comment.. 'nothing changes', EXCEPT FOR THE RANGE AND THE FACT THEY HAVE A HOLD OF YOU which makes them able to chain wrestle you and in the clinch the taller fighter generally has the disadvantage as opposed to open space, when they have you clinched up you CANNOT use your height/range to your advantage, the majority of the clinch takedown battle is who has the best leverage with there hips. Also, defending a takedown against the fence is completely different as well. It is funny as hell you think a takedown is a takedown, you're a god damned fool. Sorry not sorry.

[Rambo]

Using your same logic punch technique and striking defense, in the clinch, need to be separate statistics as well since clinch striking is nothing like standing on the outside.

[Rambo]

114 is pretty decent but okay

I would crush you both physically and mentally.

 

Run along and play little savage.

[bobloblaw]

Using your same logic punch technique and striking defense, in the clinch, need to be separate statistics as well since clinch striking is nothing like standing on the outside.

Exactly. It's Absurd

[JakeF]

Cant spend the time to read all this guy's bullshit but let's not forget that this is a game and in games it is much better to sacrifice realism for game balance.

 

Also having more secondaries than the setup we have now is bullshit too. Training is already too slow and complicated.

[pjrfin]

I somewhat support the idea of more secondaries. Not sure if clinch takedowns and defense are the right ones though.

 

I also very strongly support the idea of physicals cap.

 

Both would add much needed build diversity. The current builds are (IMO) too cookie cutter, and the metagame is stale.

 

But that being said, I don't believe anymore that either are coming. Mike keeps saying from time to time that he's still working on them, and I believe that he's being earnest and honestly thinks he'll get to them eventually. But he probably won't.

[barney]

You actually proved me right with that comment.. 'nothing changes', EXCEPT FOR THE RANGE AND THE FACT THEY HAVE A HOLD OF YOU which makes them able to chain wrestle you and in the clinch the taller fighter generally has the disadvantage as opposed to open space, when they have you clinched up you CANNOT use your height/range to your advantage, the majority of the clinch takedown battle is who has the best leverage with there hips. Also, defending a takedown against the fence is completely different as well. It is funny as hell you think a takedown is a takedown, you're a god damned fool. Sorry not sorry.

 

In Judo being taller while clinched is not an auto disadvantage. Actually, it twnds to give you an advantage during the grip battle fir the lapel. I always found REALLY hard to get a strong lapel grip first against taller opponents, even more if its a right handed vs left handed fight

[barney]

I somewhat support the idea of more secondaries. Not sure if clinch takedowns and defense are the right ones though.

 

I also very strongly support the idea of physicals cap.

 

Both would add much needed build diversity. The current builds are (IMO) too cookie cutter, and the metagame is stale.

 

But that being said, I don't believe anymore that either are coming. Mike keeps saying from time to time that he's still working on them, and I believe that he's being earnest and honestly thinks he'll get to them eventually. But he probably won't.

If you wanna change the meta tweek secondary efficiency or pointing system. Meta changed. No need to drastic mechanical changes. Many managers dont habdle this quite well and just leave the game everytime the mechanics change

[Rambo]

I somewhat support the idea of more secondaries. Not sure if clinch takedowns and defense are the right ones though.

 

I also very strongly support the idea of physicals cap.

 

Both would add much needed build diversity. The current builds are (IMO) too cookie cutter, and the metagame is stale.

 

But that being said, I don't believe anymore that either are coming. Mike keeps saying from time to time that he's still working on them, and I believe that he's being earnest and honestly thinks he'll get to them eventually. But he probably won't.

Clinch TD and TD Def are as ridiculous as adding clinch punch tech and clinch striking def. The TD and td def skill should remain universal w/ clinchwork skill minorly impacting success/defense from clinch position.

 

 

The physical cap would work if wasn't an extreme difference, and you had strength and cardio balance each other out. Feel like Exceptional/Exceptional or Elite/Wonderful should be enforced. Elite strength? Wonderful/Exceptional cardio. Elite cardio? Wonderful/Exceptional strength.

 

Feel like the rest of physicals could stand as is, if you just had the strength/cardio scale counter balance each other, would be more realistic imo. Elite/Wonderful would probably be a good barrier for Str/Cardio.

[jjsquirrel]

And add a similar counterbalance between Strength-Flexibility.

[Rambo]

And add a similar counterbalance between Strength-Flexibility.

Already thought of that but didn't think it should impact both due to balance (not the physical lol...), unless the flex/cardio loss trade off was equal to the strength trade off. I.e. if you receive -20 each for cardio and flex for max str... should receive -40 str for max cardio/max flex.

[Lefty]

Clinch TD and TD Def are as ridiculous as adding clinch punch tech and clinch striking def. The TD and td def skill should remain universal w/ clinchwork skill minorly impacting success/defense from clinch position.

 

 

The physical cap would work if wasn't an extreme difference, and you had strength and cardio balance each other out. Feel like Exceptional/Exceptional or Elite/Wonderful should be enforced. Elite strength? Wonderful/Exceptional cardio. Elite cardio? Wonderful/Exceptional strength.

 

Feel like the rest of physicals could stand as is, if you just had the strength/cardio scale counter balance each other, would be more realistic imo. Elite/Wonderful would probably be a good barrier for Str/Cardio.

This makes sense because if you are very strong, you shouldn't be able to have matching cardio and vice versa. Either that OR making the physical monsters pay for having jacked physicals by having the excess physicals points cut into their overrall cap/secondaries cap. I think that would work better if there was some kind of modifier to make the penalty balanced.

As for clinch TDs and TD def I also believe this to be hugely unneeded and nonsensical.

[Antary]

I tried asking this in noob questions but didn't get an answer. Does anyone know if skill (secondary or primary) increases the damage of strikes or if it only depends on strength/KO power?

[Rambo]

I tried asking this in noob questions but didn't get an answer. Does anyone know if skill (secondary or primary) increases the damage of strikes or if it only depends on strength/KO power?

I think it's only str/KO power + acc/dam slider W/ stats impacting effectiveness + % succcess... but could be wrong.

[Bwang]

I tried asking this in noob questions but didn't get an answer. Does anyone know if skill (secondary or primary) increases the damage of strikes or if it only depends on strength/KO power?

Yeah I think the skills only effect the chance of a strike landing. Damage depends on strength, KO power and acc/dam slider.

[Antary]

How does the acc/dam slider work? Are attacks split into two categories (strong attack and accurate attack) and the slider decides how likely your fighter is to try one or the other? Is damage/accuracy a sliding scale and the slider decides the damage/accuracy of every single strike your fighter makes in the fight?

[JakeF]

It is a multiplier that applies to each strike. If you set 60 damage/ 40 accuracy, each strike's damage will get a 0.6 multiplier and each strike's accuracy will get a 0.4 multiplier. Have in mind that each type of strike has natural damage and accuracy. Imo it goes that way:

 

Head punches and leg kicks - highest natural accuracy, lowest natural damage and energy sap

Body punches - moderate natural accuracy, moderate energy sap

Body kicks - less than moderate natural accuracy, highest energy sap

Head kicks - low natural accuracy, 2nd highest natural damage

Punch combos - lowest natural accuracy, highest natural damage

 

Also from my observations, damage done in fights reflects directly to opponent's energy levels. I have had fights where my fighter landed just 5-6 head punches with high damage slider before getting a KO and in the end of the fight opponent's energy was at 30-40%. So in the way the game engine processes values and formulas, head strikes are also sapping energy with a chance of Cut/Knockdown/He's Rocked/KO/TKO event happening. While body strikes are just sapping higher amount of energy without a chance of any of the above events happening. Leg kicks are also interesting, cause I think they are sapping a slight amount of energy but also they are lowering some(if not all) of your opponent's active physical skills.

 

This info hasn't been confirmed by Mike, it is just my observations during the years. Use it as you wish.

[barney]

What about your opponent secondaries?

sensational punches against sensational striking D is the same than sensational punches against useless - striking D?

I've heard before that having a lower defensive secondary increases the KO power of incoming moves, but I always treated this as a gossip

 

It is a multiplier that applies to each strike. If you set 60 damage/ 40 accuracy, each strike's damage will get a 0.6 multiplier and each strike's accuracy will get a 0.4 multiplier. Have in mind that each type of strike has natural damage and accuracy. Imo it goes that way:

 

Head punches and leg kicks - highest natural accuracy, lowest natural damage and energy sap

Body punches - moderate natural accuracy, moderate energy sap

Body kicks - less than moderate natural accuracy, highest energy sap

Head kicks - low natural accuracy, 2nd highest natural damage

Punch combos - lowest natural accuracy, highest natural damage

 

Also from my observations, damage done in fights reflects directly to opponent's energy levels. I have had fights where my fighter landed just 5-6 head punches with high damage slider before getting a KO and in the end of the fight opponent's energy was at 30-40%. So in the way the game engine processes values and formulas, head strikes are also sapping energy with a chance of Cut/Knockdown/He's Rocked/KO/TKO event happening. While body strikes are just sapping higher amount of energy without a chance of any of the above events happening. Leg kicks are also interesting, cause I think they are sapping a slight amount of energy but also they are lowering some(if not all) of your opponent's active physical skills.

 

This info hasn't been confirmed by Mike, it is just my observations during the years. Use it as you wish.