Fight Engine Discussion

[JLP]

 

 

OK, I'll take a stab at this:

 

1. I just don't see this really adding much diversity. There is gonna end up being a best average physical set up, that is going to be best overall or all around, IMO. This is still going to be semi cookie cutter physicals after a short period of time once guys figure out you can't do this or that. Now if you could change them quick enough to actually adjust them fight to fight that might be different, like being able to raise flex when going against a sub guy or something. However I doubt you could change it much with the current training speed we have now in the typical time from when a fight is offered to the time of the fight.

 

2. Here is the BIGGEST PROBLEM: Lets just say you want 130 cardio and strength and 115 in the rest of the physicals for simplicity and you have them trained to exactly that and are capped in physicals. Now every time you train anything you're going to mess up your physicals and have to "fix them". So I spam train kicks and my flex goes up, so it robs points from cardio and strength and adds to flex. Now I have to train cardio and strength to lower flex and get cardio/strength back down. Depending on how it works, it will likely also mess up my agility, speed, and balance. Your going to have an never ending battle trying to maintain physicals where you want them and waste time training this stuff back to where you want it instead of training other things. This will end up being a huge waste of training time, IMO. This is also going to require individual C/T coaches more then general C/T's so you can keep things where you want them.

 

^ For those unaware, training any skill also adds point to the related physicals like:

Clinch = strength, cardio, balance

Defense grap = Flex, cardio

ETC

 

 

To be fair: Mike was gonna do allocation on physicals so there won't be time fixing them as you will be able to allocate them down to what you want.

1. I have to disagree 100% on that. I think there will be a lot of extreme physicals builds that will work, but will likely take a while to find. I've planned out a few that complement other skill sets and am pretty excited to implement them. I actually think the build you describe in point 2 will work against other builds like that but be at a disadvantage to fighters with extreme physicals disparity and the builds to exploit it. I'm not willing to give my thoughts on new builds here, but as your mentor I will share with you in chat next time im in there.

 

2. Valid point. Not something I've even considered. And it would make managing your training a headache.

But I think it might be pretty easy for mike to add a "maintain physicals" class to a CT coach and use that to just keep everything where they are, regardless of disparity between physicals.

[bjornmma1]

Those arguments are precisely what I talked about it earlier. They arent really coherent thoughts. More like a hot take on an subject that you have put little to no thought into. If you are worried that you will be worse at the game after the changes then just say it.

 

I'll respond to them all anyway.

 

1. Everyone is getting hit the same and you will be able to choose which physicals you lose your points from.

 

2. No one said it was impossible to create a wide variety of fighters. Its just very hard to compete after your fighter maxes out with anything other then the elite/elite/sen/brown archetype that dominates the top level of the game. Of course there are fighters with great hiddens/managers that buck the trend, but Id roughly estimate about 75% or more of the fighters that reach maturity are built along the elite/elite/sen/brown build. Even if that doesnt change at least we can now add in physicals variety and it will make the game much more interesting.

 

3. Mike said he was almost done with the physicals cap update, so it will likely not take much time to finish. I don't think the ground game is all that bad and I'd wait to see how the cap effects the engine before I'd advise any changes.

 

Not having the same opinion as you doesn't mean that those people didn't think about their remarks and opinions.

 

1) True, but that doesn't mean it is a good thing. If something is bad for a lot of people, it becomes good because it is the same level of 'bad' for all? Strange reasoning.

2) You agree with me that it doesn't make much difference on long term as for type of builds, but then say it will make the game more interesting... If so, how?

3) For someone who thinks the ground game is not that bad, it is rather strange that you took multiple of your guys out of orgs and into training , ' until the ground game would be fixed' ...

 

+ Duphus his second bulletpoint is something I didn't think about yet, but indeed a very important thing to consider.

[JLP]

 

Not having the same opinion as you doesn't mean that those people didn't think about their remarks and opinions.

 

1) True, but that doesn't mean it is a good thing. If something is bad for a lot of people, it becomes good because it is the same level of 'bad' for all? Strange reasoning.

2) You agree with me that it doesn't make much difference on long term as for type of builds, but then say it will make the game more interesting... If so, how?

3) For someone who thinks the ground game is not that bad, it is rather strange that you took multiple of your guys out of orgs and into training , ' until the ground game would be fixed' ...

 

+ Duphus his second bulletpoint is something I didn't think about yet, but indeed a very important thing to consider.

How much thought have you put into how to build fighters with a physicals cap? Be honest. Because your responses here are indicative that you havent thought about it at all, other then you dont like it. It's like you really dont want to even think about what im saying, instead you are just doubling down on vague concepts or outright misconstruing my thoughts.

 

1. You are the one saying bad. I disagree, therefore my reasoning is not strange at all.

In this game, like pretty much any rpg, character points are relative. It matters how you allocate them. We all have the same potential points to use, so therefore there is no disparity created when they are chopped down.

 

2. I never agreed that it wouldnt make any difference at all longterm. I cant even begin to comprehend were you came up with that. If people still want to go with the standard kickboxer/def grappler (elite/elite/sen/brown) archetype im sure it will still work. Now they will have to figure out a) how to allocate their physicals b)how to fight with new physicals. You might see some uniformity among alliances and friends who share information/ideas, but if you think everyone is going to allocate their points the exact same way then you havent thought about it at all. Two kickboxer/def grappler fighting each other will now not both be identical physically. One fighter might have allocated high points to cardio and made a fighter to agg/acc and try to wear the opponent out. The other one might have poured points into speed and agility and be trying to use those physicals to be a counter heavy fighter. That's a simple example of diversity.

 

3. I'm pretty sure that I never said that. Feel free to find it and quote it here. I released both strikers and grapplers, or retired them for a few months waiting for an update. I actually got rid of far more strikers then grapplers. I did that because I was bored with the entire current game in a whole rather then the ground in particular. The main problem with the ground is its so hard to get it there before youve put yourself in an energy deficit. It's not perfect, but its something we can wait and see how a physicals cap changes that.

[bjornmma1]

How much thought have you put into how to build fighters with a physicals cap? Be honest. Because your responses here are indicative that you havent thought about it at all, other then you dont like it. It's like you really dont want to even think about what im saying, instead you are just doubling down on vague concepts or outright misconstruing my thoughts.

 

1. You are the one saying bad. I disagree, therefore my reasoning is not strange at all.

In this game, like pretty much any rpg, character points are relative. It matters how you allocate them. We all have the same potential points to use, so therefore there is no disparity created when they are chopped down.

 

2. I never agreed that it wouldnt make any difference at all longterm. I cant even begin to comprehend were you came up with that. If people still want to go with the standard kickboxer/def grappler (elite/elite/sen/brown) archetype im sure it will still work. Now they will have to figure out a) how to allocate their physicals b)how to fight with new physicals. You might see some uniformity among alliances and friends who share information/ideas, but if you think everyone is going to allocate their points the exact same way then you havent thought about it at all. Two kickboxer/def grappler fighting each other will now not both be identical physically. One fighter might have allocated high points to cardio and made a fighter to agg/acc and try to wear the opponent out. The other one might have poured points into speed and agility and be trying to use those physicals to be a counter heavy fighter. That's a simple example of diversity.

 

3. I'm pretty sure that I never said that. Feel free to find it and quote it here. I released both strikers and grapplers, or retired them for a few months waiting for an update. I actually got rid of far more strikers then grapplers. I did that because I was bored with the entire current game in a whole rather then the ground in particular. The main problem with the ground is its so hard to get it there before youve put yourself in an energy deficit. It's not perfect, but its something we can wait and see how a physicals cap changes that.

Once again you just try to shoot down any comment that does not agree with you, instead of normally discussing and help find a constructive solution.

 

I'll not go into the other points any more as it is pointless anyway, but number two is the main thing; diversity.

 

What I am trying to explain is that making physicals more limited and therefore needing a bit more creativity, is only a temporary challenge. Sure, people could then mess around a bit with different physical ' settings' and see how their fighters react by doing so, but that's just trial and error anyway, what will lead to eventually finding out what the best type of new breed is. Managers would find out pretty fast what archetype works out the best and then we would still end up with a lot of similar fighters at the top.

Therefore I really don't believe that adding a physicals' cap is going to diversify the crop of fighters, certainly not at the highest level of the game.

[JLP]

Once again you just try to shoot down any comment that does not agree with you, instead of normally discussing and help find a constructive solution.

 

I'll not go into the other points any more as it is pointless anyway, but number two is the main thing; diversity.

 

What I am trying to explain is that making physicals more limited and therefore needing a bit more creativity, is only a temporary challenge. Sure, people could then mess around a bit with different physical ' settings' and see how their fighters react by doing so, but that's just trial and error anyway, what will lead to eventually finding out what the best type of new breed is. Managers would find out pretty fast what archetype works out the best and then we would still end up with a lot of similar fighters at the top.

Therefore I really don't believe that adding a physicals' cap is going to diversify the crop of fighters, certainly not at the highest level of the game.

I shoot down stuff that isnt really relevant to any discussion. You are having an emotional reaction and then inventing problems for it to justify your feelings. I can tell you havent thought about how the physicals cap would impact the game at all other then how you percieve it would potentially disadvantage you in particular

 

If diversity is your key word, then why are you arguing to keep the status quo which is pretty far from diverse? If the physical cap makes the game even slightly more diverse then its a huge success. The argument that "Managers would find out pretty fast what archetype works out the best and then we would still end up with a lot of similar fighters at the top." is nothing but speculation based on the current engine. There have been engines were diversity in fighter builds were prevalent and there was no "uber" build. I dont see how you can dismiss that possibility when you have no idea how the change will effect the game and havent really put any thought into it at all that I can see from what you wrote.

[soyster89]

If/when there's a physicals cap, will there be a hidden that determines what that cap is for each fighter, or will it be the same across the board?

[soyster89]

I'd love to have flights fixed so I don't have to constantly cancel them.

As long as it doesn't lead to the need to book flights again, I agree. Honestly, I'd rather cancel auto-flights than schedule flights any day. Scheduling flights was the worst part of the game, in my opinion.

[gwad12345]

I'm also looking forward to testing new combinations of physicals.

 

My only real worry right now is that some people will abuse the system by taking all-around strikers, completely neglecting balance and then rejecting offers to fight any grapplers thereby giving them a decent edge over strikers who are ready to fight anyone. We all already know that some managers exploit a similar advantage by not training BJJ in ID orgs, etc.

[madbob]

I'm also looking forward to testing new combinations of physicals.

 

My only real worry right now is that some people will abuse the system by taking all-around strikers, completely neglecting balance and then rejecting offers to fight any grapplers thereby giving them a decent edge over strikers who are ready to fight anyone. We all already know that some managers exploit a similar advantage by not training BJJ in ID orgs, etc.

 

but this is a thing the org owners should have a look over. i mean since this game is community run through orgs. as long as someone will put up with shit like this, managers will do it. we our self need to keep an eye on stuff like this, but then again as long as people accept fights that get offered like the option you suggest here, then it is nothing you can do anything against. So maybe if it happens to often, you could write a noob guide for fight offers, so people will know what to look for and avoid managers who exploid it.

BTW i did not know people do that in ID orgs, but good to know, now i will keep an eye out for it.

[gwad12345]

 

but this is a thing the org owners should have a look over. i mean since this game is community run through orgs. as long as someone will put up with shit like this, managers will do it. we our self need to keep an eye on stuff like this, but then again as long as people accept fights that get offered like the option you suggest here, then it is nothing you can do anything against. So maybe if it happens to often, you could write a noob guide for fight offers, so people will know what to look for and avoid managers who exploid it.

BTW i did not know people do that in ID orgs, but good to know, now i will keep an eye out for it.

 

Yea it is more of a character flaw then anything else, not the games fault.

 

And you don't know of a certain someone who messages org owners to see if they have strikers available to test his fighters? Or issues challenges on the forums and refuses to accept grapplers?

[GBK16]

 

Yea it is more of a character flaw then anything else, not the games fault.

 

And you don't know of a certain someone who messages org owners to see if they have strikers available to test his fighters? Or issues challenges on the forums and refuses to accept grapplers?

Or back out of challenges in general

 

 

When Mike first said the Physical change, I immediately disliked it because he was mentioning like 70% of the cap which would have been Remarkable + or thereabouts on average across the board. While I still don't necessarily like the idea of Physical changes, that's more due to the fact I believe there are other things that can be done to improve the game more than this change. In particular, Duphus' previous suggestion of potentially having your Primaries become a reflection of your trained Secondaries. While it would require some toying about in order to produce a fair and somewhat balanced result, it is an idea that I feel has been forgotten about in the whole discussion thread.

 

I've already got my ideas on potential Physical builds anyway since it's pretty much an inevitable change coming through so when it does happen, I'll be looking forward to seeing how my ideas play out in any regard.

[Lefty]

A physicals cap is going to make it much harder to get finishes. Imagine. You cannot train your strength up to elite anymore unless you are willing to compromise every other physical.

Fighter diversity will be the same. There will ALWAYS be a cookie cutter build that everyone is using and before long, people will be talking about "exploits" and "broken engine" and many people will be upset about the changes and they will leave. This change brings no new users to the game at all. I do not see how this helps the game be more profitable nor bring any new users, only get rid of a bunch of veterans.

The engine is very solid as it stands right now. Really solid. I have played this game for 5 years and I can honestly say that no update has ever made me upset or consider leaving the game. This physicals cap though is really making me consider leaving the game. I have a bit more than a year of VIP left, I do not think I will be buying any more VIP time with this change to the skills.

At any rate, I see over 70% of managers against a physicals cap. There have been games who make unnecessary updates against the wishes of their majority of players and those games have lost many of their users. Runescape for instance lost over 50% of their active players to the "death of the wilderness" update which saw the end of PKing for a long time. Years later Jagex reconsidered and added it back to the game, realizing the mistake they had made.

[madbob]

 

Yea it is more of a character flaw then anything else, not the games fault.

 

And you don't know of a certain someone who messages org owners to see if they have strikers available to test his fighters? Or issues challenges on the forums and refuses to accept grapplers?

 

oh him, well i blocked everything from him so i dont know anything whats up with him, besides the pyramid chat where i cant block Tho funny to read as usual.

[MMATycoon]

Managers return to the game all the time. Ask them whether they like the idea or not. Shiv just came back after about 3 years off. I can't imagine he'd prefer to pointlessly train all physicals up to elite just to be on an equal footing.

 

Next time you make a new fighter after the cap, lemme know whether you miss training every fighter up to elite for literally no reason.

 

Regarding the physicals getting messed about with primary / secondary training, we'll just have to see how it goes. I can't imagine it will be much more complicated than throwing in a weights session once a week or a cardio session in once a week to "rebalance"... it's something that people do in real life, so really it's what should happen here. It's not like the physicals need to be "perfect" to your build the entire time anyway, it only matters what they look like come fight time really.

 

Sometimes I have to do something people aren't exactly clamouring for because I think it makes sense. Imagine if there was always a cap and I said I was gunna remove the cap and you now all had to spend months training every physical skill up to elite just to be the same as everyone else. You'd think that was moronic. I'm doing something that makes sense. If you wanna leave because of it that's up to you. When you come back in a year, you'll prefer it.

[BillyRose]

Managers return to the game all the time. Ask them whether they like the idea or not. Shiv just came back after about 3 years off. I can't imagine he'd prefer to pointlessly train all physicals up to elite just to be on an equal footing.

 

Next time you make a new fighter after the cap, lemme know whether you miss training every fighter up to elite for literally no reason.

 

Regarding the physicals getting messed about with primary / secondary training, we'll just have to see how it goes. I can't imagine it will be much more complicated than throwing in a weights session once a week or a cardio session in once a week to "rebalance"... it's something that people do in real life, so really it's what should happen here. It's not like the physicals need to be "perfect" to your build the entire time anyway, it only matters what they look like come fight time really.

 

Sometimes I have to do something people aren't exactly clamouring for because I think it makes sense. Imagine if there was always a cap and I said I was gunna remove the cap and you now all had to spend months training every physical skill up to elite just to be the same as everyone else. You'd think that was moronic. I'm doing something that makes sense. If you wanna leave because of it that's up to you. When you come back in a year, you'll prefer it.

 

 

Still, once the guys figure it out, there's going to be a bunch of cookie-cutter builds. Boxers will use ___ physicals, Wrestlers will use ___ physicals, and everyone will still be the same, except it'll be more complicated.

 

 

Here's an idea for you Mike:

 

 

A new Hidden Attribute called Athleticism.

 

 

A fighter's natural Athleticism could have a score between 1-150 just like any other hidden. At 150, the Fighter would be able to hit the old total physical cap of 900.

 

 

At 1, the fighter would be capped at 751.

 

 

That way, players who rely on great physicals would still be at the mercy of their natural potential, just like players who rely on knockout power, counter fighting, etc.

[762x39]

The more I read and think about it, I think it will be interesting. I am sure there will be builds that work and some that dont, but it should help spread things out some. You are going to need skills for each type of fighter and those skills will have to be neglected on other types. So no way to make them good all around at everything. I would rather have a physical skill cap than another skill point cut. I like that you can build a striker but still give them some ground skills, or a wresler and still give them some boxing for standup. But you are going to have to build your physicals to the skills you want most to use so the striker is not going to have the same physical build as a ground guy so will still be at a disavantage there. So should make things more even between ground and striking.

 

I dont think that maintenance on the physicals will be that big of an issue, the only physical that it is going to change is the ones going to the skills you are training anyway so how could that cause an issue other than cardio and strength and those are easy to fix as Mike said.

 

Guess what I am getting at is I am sold on it.

[762x39]

Or back out of challenges in general

 

 

When Mike first said the Physical change, I immediately disliked it because he was mentioning like 70% of the cap which would have been Remarkable + or thereabouts on average across the board. While I still don't necessarily like the idea of Physical changes, that's more due to the fact I believe there are other things that can be done to improve the game more than this change. In particular, Duphus' previous suggestion of potentially having your Primaries become a reflection of your trained Secondaries. While it would require some toying about in order to produce a fair and somewhat balanced result, it is an idea that I feel has been forgotten about in the whole discussion thread.

 

I've already got my ideas on potential Physical builds anyway since it's pretty much an inevitable change coming through so when it does happen, I'll be looking forward to seeing how my ideas play out in any regard.

I like the idea of the primary skills being based off the secondary. Only problem I see in it is everyone will have elite boxing, because everyone trains punches, striking d, and clinch to elite. So everyone would have elite boxing, then you throw in kicks, everyone gets exceptional MT, maybe a little higher. Most leave off elbows and knees so that would be the only way to get elite MT would be to train them. That leaves the only difference to be in wrestling and BJJ. Those would all depend on how you chose to build. You want elite wrestling you are going to have to leave kicks low, that will lower MT. So it would give you the different builds you want except boxing. All in all it is a good idea I think.

[MMATycoon]

 

 

Still, once the guys figure it out, there's going to be a bunch of cookie-cutter builds. Boxers will use ___ physicals, Wrestlers will use ___ physicals, and everyone will still be the same, except it'll be more complicated.

 

 

Here's an idea for you Mike:

 

 

A new Hidden Attribute called Athleticism.

 

 

A fighter's natural Athleticism could have a score between 1-150 just like any other hidden. At 150, the Fighter would be able to hit the old total physical cap of 900.

 

 

At 1, the fighter would be capped at 751.

 

 

That way, players who rely on great physicals would still be at the mercy of their natural potential, just like players who rely on knockout power, counter fighting, etc.

 

I think it would be too harsh to have a varied cap that you only find out about after training your fighter for a year (as well as the main cap). I was thinking we'd have a new tickbox on fighter creation called "Physical Specimen", to go along with granite chin, ko power etc.... that would give them a boost of 1-3% on their physicals cap.

[BillyRose]

 

I think it would be too harsh to have a varied cap that you only find out about after training your fighter for a year

 

Unless you add some descriptions to ToTT.

 

"Generational Athlete" - the coveted equivalent to "Granite Chin"

 

"High School Sports Standout" - means a moderate rating

 

"Lethargic in Training" - means a less gifted athlete.

 

 

I hate to beat a dead horse, but taking away so much from physicals then giving people a checkbox for a 2% bonus is a slap in the face.

[JakeF]

Mike, could you share what changes in fighter behavior, fight outcomes etc. are you expecting after introducing the physical cap? How is it going to affect gameplay, etc.? Why it should be an improvement, except reducing the time for building a fighter? So far I am hearing that the reason for adding the cap is that it should have been added long ago.

[MMATycoon]

Mike, could you share what changes in fighter behavior, fight outcomes etc. are you expecting after introducing the physical cap? How is it going to affect gameplay, etc.? Why it should be an improvement, except reducing the time for building a fighter? So far I am hearing that the reason for adding the cap is that it should have been added long ago.

 

What effect it has on the fight engine is up to everyone to predict individually. I haven't really spent much time thinking about it because I don't think it's gunna be a big deal. The fight engine works for people who are in that skill range in terms of physicals as it is now already (i.e. fighters aren't created with elite physicals - they work up to that through where the cap will be now and nobody seems to think the fight engine is broken in that range of physicals now). If KOs dip off a bit, that sort of thing can be fixed very easily, so we'll deal with that if we need to.

[edwardsfan]

Quit being a pussy and just reset the game

[JakeF]

Quit being a pussy and just reset the game

 

Yeah, just after I spent like 200 VIP days for roster rebuild, pls reset the game... You know that the game would lose at least 50% of its userbase after reset, right?

[Guest]

Managers return to the game all the time. Ask them whether they like the idea or not. Shiv just came back after about 3 years off. I can't imagine he'd prefer to pointlessly train all physicals up to elite just to be on an equal footing.

 

Haha, glad to be back Mike.

 

I wouldn't, but then again, I wouldn't be keen on training all my skills to Elite just to be on equal footing as well. From what I've understood so far, you need to be Elite++ in clinch (apparently, even Elite+ can be too low at the top levels).

 

While I agree with Physical changes, I'd personally also have suggested other changes just so you are forced to make a trade-off in terms of where you want your points. A lower skill cap for example, would encourage you to sacrifice certain elements to be able to get a skill to that Elite++ level. That creates weaknesses and variances in builds - which would create better fights and more strategy.

 

These all seem to be symptoms however, the core issues remain the same from when I left:

 

a. PPV Money - The sheer amount of money generated by PPV's has changed the economy significantly. The amount people earn through that (and in turn, pay fighters) is disproportional to the rest of the game (where the best supplements cost $300 for 14 days as an example).

 

b. Gym / Training - Currently, the system gives a clear incentive to go for 1on1 training (for secondaries). With an abundance of money in the market, it's the norm to have your own private gym. If training instead worked on gyms which required you to have lots of high quality people in sessions and the like, you might even encourage people to create "public" gyms - even going out to go approach fighters to join their gym and so on.

 

If you compare it to real life, you have places like Tristar and the like, which are massive gyms full of top fighters. In fact, the gym owner could even be getting a percentage of the fighters pay - or just have higher fees available (like in real life).

 

I know these are massive changes - and probably not feasible at this point in time but I thought I might as well give you my two cents on it. I can explain how it should function - and how it could be reflected on the current fighters and so on if you wish.

 

On the subject of a reset, it's definitely possible to create a "new" game world (like you would see a new server in an MMORPG) - which could operate with a lot of fixes that you've seen over the years are required. The biggest challenge with any changes to be made is the fact that there are people who get affected by these right now - who have spent time and money to build fighters or companies for the current system. A new thing could feel free to make any drastic changes - should they be required. You could even offer all existing VIP's 90 days of VIP for free on the "new" save for them to try it out (or the same amount they have currently). I mean, it's just ideas on how you could have a "new" game without alienating your entire userbase.

[juicemalone]

In my experience when a developer adds features/updates with the intention of fixing things the majority of their users didn't even have a problem with.....failure is the end result.

 

This isn't just true of software or games either. It has happened plenty of times with musical instruments and other hardware too.

 

I am not optimistic about the games' future. IMO it needs to be stripped down to it's essence. Lose the betting/bookmaker/wisdom of crowd bullshit, make training less of a chore and less exclusive and focus solely on the fighting and economy/business side of things. It's called MMA tycoon after all.