KT org model broken but how about a stand-up only mma org?

[ToshLodi]

With KT orgs unable to thrive under current circumstances (no hype), hence there being a shortage of them, i wondering if we can replicate KT in an MMA org by getting all managers in a new org to set sliders so fighters stay standing up/dont engage in any wrestling/BJJ.

With all sliders set correctly: Stay Standing, Don’t Follow, Allow opponent up etc. should allow the fight to be kept on the feet - this obviously requires mangers to follow the rules to make it work.

It's not perfect but I think it's worth a shot to get the games best strikers fighting KT style.

What do people think? Could it work, are people keen to try it and join?

I'm very willing to open and run an org like this if theres a demand for it.

Please leave some feedback guys!

[Jersey]

Quite honestly, my biggest issue with participating in KT is that it shows up on the overall MMA record.  I know it sounds silly, maybe it's some OCD thing, but that drives me crazy.

[ToshLodi]

3 hours ago, Jersey said:

Quite honestly, my biggest issue with participating in KT is that it shows up on the overall MMA record.  I know it sounds silly, maybe it's some OCD thing, but that drives me crazy.

Yeah, that'll put some people off for sure. I'm still thinking the pro's outweigh the cons?

[ToshLodi]

I think I'd have the 265+ as a standalone normal KT, and run an event once a month, something like that - these events would take a financial loss but the hope is the "MMA" standup events generate enough to withstand some losses. I'd be more than happy if the org ran at breakeven, or close to. Not trying to make a cashcow, just want an awesome event

[ToshLodi]

14 minutes ago, ToshLodi said:

I think I'd have the 265+ as a standalone normal KT, and run an event once a month, something like that - these events would take a financial loss but the hope is the "MMA" standup events generate enough to withstand some losses. I'd be more than happy if the org ran at breakeven, or close to. Not trying to make a cashcow, just want an awesome event

Judging by Heroes roster, 135 could be a standalone KT, possibly even 155

Potential the org could look like this - but not set in stone, just thinking out loud

135 - KT

145 - StandUP-mma

155 - KT ??

170 - StandUP-mma

185 - StandUP-mma

205 - StandUP-mma

265 - StandUP-mma

265+ - KT 

That way we'd get some normal KT in as well for some of the fighters

[Daudy]

I think there's been a couple of orgs and may even be a couple smaller ones now that have attempted a mixed model like that. I think GAMMA also briefly flirted with the idea (or was it with grappling), but apparently diminishing returns wasn't working the way they thought it would. They're meant to be separate from each other, but I don't really know the details and never really tried myself.

The problem you have with a standup only 'mma' league is that ultimately people forget sometimes. Even in the MW GOAT Boxing tournament, when the first round was mistakenly made as a MMA fight, Thibs (the eventual winner and all around boxing tournament guru) forgot the first round (though his fighter did 'lose' the fight and woulda been DQ'd from that round anyway). This was a bunch of pretty experienced and active managers AND we had an even more stringent slider ruleset (no clinching allowed), and yet it still happened. I'm not at all knocking him, but saying it will happen and it can happen to anybody

The major thing is then what do you do when that happens? You can't remove that stain from the record of the person that got dudded (assuming they 'lose'), even if it was a mistake, and all around it just makes people with a bad taste in their mouth. Heaven forbid you get a troll amongst there too.

Additionally, it also means other minor parts of the sliders are effectively locked out from use. In regular KT, you'd be able to let fighters see how it goes a bit to make use of any intel, but you definitely DO NOT want to allow that in this.

I think a KT org can be run and run sustainably (from a financials point of view even with the hype issues), but it relies on two things:

1) It's definitely a bit of a labour of love, and the few people left willing to do that kind of stuff are probably just running regular orgs. One could argue it's possibly actually more labour intensive in some ways since the pool is small, generally pretty old, full of sparbots that people don't want to fight to risk their rankings, and full of inactives.

2) The people who are participating to take pretty low salaries. With the game the way it is and a pretty tough softcap on fighter slots even if you're VIP, most people are probably going to use their slots for mma guys. Even more so for non-VIPs or people who buy VIP with tycoon dollars. You gotta earn those tycoon dollarydoos and/or have limited slots, and why would you bother on a low salary niche unless you really really want to play there.

Like with a few people, I've had moments where my interest has waned a little bit of late (my clothing store activity in particular). I also own/manage DMMA, have a nutrition shop, and a shedload of fighters (I've hit 50+ fights in a month). However, I'd still consider running a KT org with a similar pay structure to when I ran Dynasty Contenders - but there's no real way of me doing so unless I engage in some multi-account tomfoolery (and also purchase VIP for it, which I wouldn't be terribly interested in doing).

[ToshLodi]

Yeah agree, the obvious issues with this format is managers forgetting to set sliders or straight up cheating. We would have to be strict there, but also give people a chance if a one-off mistake is made. If someone had blatantly cheated (hard to prove) they’ll obviously be booted, in the event of a “mistake/forgot to set slider” the person would probably get 1 chance, the second time will result in termination from org - no hard feelings, its the only way to make it work - something like that 

also maybe an email could be sent with the fight contract stating that managers need to set sliders for their fighter prior to signing the contract 

but yes it’s not full proof, it’s not perfect. Will mistakes happen, probably. The question managers would need to ask is, ultimately, is it still worth it?

As you said, KT orgs can’t pay the fighters what they deserve - this model, potentially, could pay really well, and we may see more managers fighting their elite strikers who otherwise wouldn’t.

TBH, I’m not saying it’s 100% going to work, and I’d only do it if people were wanting it - but I’m definitely intrigued by it now haha 

 

 

[Skuzbukit]

IMHO KT is simply not worth doing, it needs fixing before it would be but its been broken so long I don't know if it can reasonably recover at this point.

[ToshLodi]

8 minutes ago, Skuzbukit said:

IMHO KT is simply not worth doing, it needs fixing before it would be but its been broken so long I don't know if it can reasonably recover at this point.

Any interest in the standup only idea ?

[The1rstSaint]

1 hour ago, ToshLodi said:

Any interest in the standup only idea ?

I sent you a PM and would be happy to toss some cash into a KT org investment. There may not be to many managers in the KT scene these days but there are a few of us id imagine. Never ran a KT org and have heard all the problems but if we need to throw money away to keep it going for just a wee bit longer, I'm game. And it's not because it's the only place I have a champion (Well maybe it is) but Heroes would be something to consider taking over, if we can get the current org owner to toss it over to you at some point. I liked the org it's got a nice logo and champions are already crowned just needs a new wheelman. @Flipper we miss you, if by small chance you read this by the way!!!

[Carciofi]

I remember before grappling-only days this was an agreed upon idea with slider settings for ground fighting. Setting sliders to 100% takedowns, my fighters first action was to absolutely obliterate my opponent with an overhand. Not sure if absolutes have been fixed since then, but it was pretty funny.

[ArtieBanks]

3 hours ago, Carciofi said:

I remember before grappling-only days this was an agreed upon idea with slider settings for ground fighting. Setting sliders to 100% takedowns, my fighters first action was to absolutely obliterate my opponent with an overhand. Not sure if absolutes have been fixed since then, but it was pretty funny.

 

This was the same for KT orgs - Dynasty way back was the first KT org and it ran for two years before Mike got around to putting in KT hype. 

[ToshLodi]

58 minutes ago, ArtieBanks said:

 

This was the same for KT orgs - Dynasty way back was the first KT org and it ran for two years before Mike got around to putting in KT hype. 

Interesting. So it must have worked ok if it lasted 2 years?

[Skuzbukit]

7 hours ago, ToshLodi said:

Interesting. So it must have worked ok if it lasted 2 years?

Might have worked "way back when" but the game is clearly far less populated these days, I could maybe see a tournament using that rule working but running an Org like that would be a bit of a gamble & would have to plan to manage "infractions", all power to you if you give it a go though.

[ArtieBanks]

9 hours ago, ToshLodi said:

Interesting. So it must have worked ok if it lasted 2 years?

 

Yeah if you fucked around you got punted out and for the vast majority they played by the rules. 

The biggest issue even back then was getting people interested in KT. I can't really remember Dynasty being over 100 fighters nor anyone after that ( XKC. NACF, EFFA etc). 

[soyster89]

I think KT rules can work in an MMA org, but it's not ideal. In my opinion, setting aside a weight class is the best concept. But even then, it's nothing I'd want to participate in.

[ToshLodi]

1 hour ago, soyster89 said:

I think KT rules can work in an MMA org, but it's not ideal. In my opinion, setting aside a weight class is the best concept. But even then, it's nothing I'd want to participate in.

Fair enough, thanks for the feedback 

[ToshLodi]

Cheers for the feedback guys. Good to get a vibe of what everyones feeling.

I think the best thing to do now is just wait and see what happens with Heroes - maybe someone takes it over, maybe something else pops up.

After that, if theres still a need for a KT org maybe i'll re-visit starting a hybrid model - mainly KT with some of the standup stuff thrown in as well.

We'll see how we go, Cheers!

[Zello]

I want boxing in the game

[Jersey]

6 hours ago, Zello said:

I want boxing in the game

I wouldn't mind that.  Or even KT with aggressive clinch breaks.  Like, 1 stall and the ref steps in.

[jjsquirrel]

8 hours ago, Zello said:

I want boxing in the game

Boxing by stripping away everything but punches from the current fight engine just becomes a very one-dimensional thing without much room for slider tactics. I think it would just suck and not draw much interest at all.

The right way to do it in my opinion would be to add some additional boxing specific sliders to fine-tune the punching game further. And of course some fight engine adaptations to go with it like how the scoring is different for grappling. Adjust things like lower the punching power to reflect thicker gloves and allow for longer matches.

Could maybe draw some players from the boxing community as well, would let us arrange some tycoon crossover fights between the sports

Even if boxing specific sliders are added the fighter builds would still be completely one-dimensional. This just isn't a boxing game and will never be a good one without some serious thought and development effort. If that happened, sure I would try it out, but boxing as an even more handicapped version of the original game than KT already is, I see no point in that.

[Jersey]

44 minutes ago, jjsquirrel said:

Boxing by stripping away everything but punches from the current fight engine just becomes a very one-dimensional thing without much room for slider tactics. I think it would just suck and not draw much interest at all.

The right way to do it in my opinion would be to add some additional boxing specific sliders to fine-tune the punching game further. And of course some fight engine adaptations to go with it like how the scoring is different for grappling. Adjust things like lower the punching power to reflect thicker gloves and allow for longer matches.

Could maybe draw some players from the boxing community as well, would let us arrange some tycoon crossover fights between the sports

Even if boxing specific sliders are added the fighter builds would still be completely one-dimensional. This just isn't a boxing game and will never be a good one without some serious thought and development effort. If that happened, sure I would try it out, but boxing as an even more handicapped version of the original game than KT already is, I see no point in that.

Yeah, that's why I think I'd just prefer striking with a modified Clinch system.  1 stall, ref breaks it.  I think that'd be well enough for the people that want pure striking.

[jjsquirrel]

20 minutes ago, Jersey said:

Yeah, that's why I think I'd just prefer striking with a modified Clinch system.  1 stall, ref breaks it.  I think that'd be well enough for the people that want pure striking.

Making a few different rule sets available like kickboxing, MT, K1 with some different rules for such things like clinch breaks, elbows allowed etc. that should not be too far away from what current KT does. And for simplicity all of them could count on the record as KT. Could add some variation and support immersion for orgs that run with different themes. Would be nice to have a dedicated MT org for example.

[soyster89]

12 hours ago, Zello said:

I want boxing in the game

We had that recent boxing tourney and I found the sliders were super limited, as was stated earlier. I love boxing, but I'd rather the MMA fight engine get tweaked as well as other issues with the game fixed first.

[Skuzbukit]

Boxing is a lot more nuanced than the current fight engine allows for, and I just can't see any development being done to properly support KT let alone Boxing, might as well ask for a CJJ ruleset at the same time because that ain't going to get support either.

We got what we got & it's okay but I think its fair to have given up hope of seeing the game given much more development, we are kinda lucky that we got the little flurry of changes we did get at the end of last year. Game will just limp along with what little players it has until it becomes unprofitable enough to get shut down.