Warwynd Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 J666, you sir have hit the nail on the head. I have been trying to say esentially that very thing throughout this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu_Pidasol Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 The training speeds you guys are posting seem weird to me, I mean these are my 2 youngest projects: http://s421.photobuc...wbzfighters.png Had 2-3 on 1 sessions mostly. Switch around the stats a bit (not long term build) and they could easily be owning mid tier orgs by now, by the time they are 22/23 they will likely be good enough to compete almost everywhere (provided they roll some non-terrible hiddens and lots of ko power), not against quad-sens but still against most competition. Your 2nd fighter has a 223 ID difference to mine, and realistically primary wise there is no difference. My guy is more rounded in his secondaries has fought 3 times and I stupidly started him 1/10 the difference in overall training sessions is 26. (you have done 26 more than me). Your guy might be a slightly quicker learner than mine although not by much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 it's just the way trends work. they happen in ALL sports. anything that dominates, even for a short time, gets mimicked to death. there's not much that programming can do to fix that. also, when it comes to slower training at higher levels: Well, it doesn't only happen in sports. It happens in all kind of multiplayer games too, everyone just copy around the stuff/build/tactic that is widely used and dominated and that forms the game's own metagame. It's sad to say that but more people will copy rather than invent something on their own for multiple reasons: 1. They are new. 2. It's safer to just copy, why fix something that is not broke? No risk, more win, hell yes! 3. They have no creativity and prefer to follow. As for slower training at higher levels, spot on. There's much more quad-sens and IMO quad-sens is pretty much the better way to go now thanks to the learning speed. Also, being a number game(Well, if we cut out all the polish and packaging, this game is indeed a number game), it's just much safer to go quad-sens than a specialist and it yields one with advantage when it comes to number. Elite++ is merely 20 points at most against a Sens-- while if a MT specialist has like strong-- wrestling, he is going to get whooped by the quad-sens Sens-- wrestling for sure seeing that it's a 50 points difference. Of course, one can be a specialist and own the world given that he has amazing hiddens that support the type of specialist like insane KO power and insane chin for an elite striking specialist that can knock anyone out before the fight hit the ground for example. However, not all the fighters are that lucky in the hidden section so I believe quad-sens is still generally better. In my opinion, there needs to be some sort of bonus for one to achieve elite level so more people will go for specialists and specialists can really be on par with quad-sens(except easier to maintain and maybe a longer-lasting career since the stat drop at the later stage isn't that harsh). An example that I know is on Winning Eleven/Pro Evolution Soccer series. In WE/PES series, there's "god region" which will 95-99 in stat. The difference between a 94 and a 96 is more than the difference between a 92 and 94 as the system gives higher bonus on stat past 94. Maybe a similar idea can be put to work with elite+ and elite++ being god region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvec88 Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Well, it doesn't only happen in sports. It happens in all kind of multiplayer games too, everyone just copy around the stuff/build/tactic that is widely used and dominated and that forms the game's own metagame. It's sad to say that but more people will copy rather than invent something on their own for multiple reasons: 1. They are new. 2. It's safer to just copy, why fix something that is not broke? No risk, more win, hell yes! 3. They have no creativity and prefer to follow. As for slower training at higher levels, spot on. There's much more quad-sens and IMO quad-sens is pretty much the better way to go now thanks to the learning speed. Also, being a number game(Well, if we cut out all the polish and packaging, this game is indeed a number game), it's just much safer to go quad-sens than a specialist and it yields one with advantage when it comes to number. Elite++ is merely 20 points at most against a Sens-- while if a MT specialist has like strong-- wrestling, he is going to get whooped by the quad-sens Sens-- wrestling for sure seeing that it's a 50 points difference. Of course, one can be a specialist and own the world given that he has amazing hiddens that support the type of specialist like insane KO power and insane chin for an elite striking specialist that can knock anyone out before the fight hit the ground for example. However, not all the fighters are that lucky in the hidden section so I believe quad-sens is still generally better. In my opinion, there needs to be some sort of bonus for one to achieve elite level so more people will go for specialists and specialists can really be on par with quad-sens(except easier to maintain and maybe a longer-lasting career since the stat drop at the later stage isn't that harsh). An example that I know is on Winning Eleven/Pro Evolution Soccer series. In WE/PES series, there's "god region" which will 95-99 in stat. The difference between a 94 and a 96 is more than the difference between a 92 and 94 as the system gives higher bonus on stat past 94. Maybe a similar idea can be put to work with elite+ and elite++ being god region. I don't think programming can stop trends. I agree with that. I just think programming can add variety making trends less successful. Everyone agrees that in order for a ground fighter to do well, he needs MUCH higher statistics than a typical sprawl and brawl fighter. I think that's where the biggest problem is. I think there has to be an equalizer and I think not have fighter who can be Elite MT and Boxing while still being Sensational wrestling only using takedown defense. If you want to be a wrestler, bjj, you don't just need striking defense but you need striking defense, clinchwork, some form of offense such as punches or kicks or whatever type of offense so you can at least throw otherwise you'll just miss takedowns and be predictable. Idk, I might be reaching, I just wish the ground game was relevant and besides in low to mid end levels. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 I don't think programming can stop trends. I agree with that. I just think programming can add variety making trends less successful. Everyone agrees that in order for a ground fighter to do well, he needs MUCH higher statistics than a typical sprawl and brawl fighter. I think that's where the biggest problem is. I think there has to be an equalizer and I think not have fighter who can be Elite MT and Boxing while still being Sensational wrestling only using takedown defense. If you want to be a wrestler, bjj, you don't just need striking defense but you need striking defense, clinchwork, some form of offense such as punches or kicks or whatever type of offense so you can at least throw otherwise you'll just miss takedowns and be predictable. Idk, I might be reaching, I just wish the ground game was relevant and besides in low to mid end levels. That is the point im making when I say slower training kills the ground guys. As if its not hard enough to get a takedown, but add in the million years you spend training one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu_Pidasol Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 That is the point im making when I say slower training kills the ground guys. As if its not hard enough to get a takedown, but add in the million years you spend training one. Maybe the opposing skills needs to be made tougher, maybe primaries cap out if you don't have enough skills in all aspects.. ie you can't hit sensational wrestling if you only have takedown defence.. You can't obtain a purple belt if you only have defensive grappling.. Maybe quite simply you can't have any primary above a related secondary. Although I'm not sure how you could make that work as most skills are tied into each other.. maybe it's appitude, make the affect more pronounced, make it so apptitude can and does stunt the growth in area that are lacking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvec88 Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Maybe the opposing skills needs to be made tougher, maybe primaries cap out if you don't have enough skills in all aspects.. ie you can't hit sensational wrestling if you only have takedown defence.. You can't obtain a purple belt if you only have defensive grappling.. Maybe quite simply you can't have any primary above a related secondary. Although I'm not sure how you could make that work as most skills are tied into each other.. maybe it's appitude, make the affect more pronounced, make it so apptitude can and does stunt the growth in area that are lacking? I think it'd be in the aptitudes honestly. If they were much harsher I think if you set no aptitude for wrestling that it has to be difficult to maintain that high wrestling. With aptitudes being harsher people would be forced to let their wrestling drop or not progress in the stand up cause they're doing more maintenance. However since everyone's afraid of a red arrow it'll stay with sprawl and brawl beasts. Just gotta learn to adapt I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 ANy word on this Mike? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 I don't think programming can stop trends. I agree with that. I just think programming can add variety making trends less successful. Everyone agrees that in order for a ground fighter to do well, he needs MUCH higher statistics than a typical sprawl and brawl fighter. I think that's where the biggest problem is. I think there has to be an equalizer and I think not have fighter who can be Elite MT and Boxing while still being Sensational wrestling only using takedown defense. If you want to be a wrestler, bjj, you don't just need striking defense but you need striking defense, clinchwork, some form of offense such as punches or kicks or whatever type of offense so you can at least throw otherwise you'll just miss takedowns and be predictable. Idk, I might be reaching, I just wish the ground game was relevant and besides in low to mid end levels. Programming can stop trends, you just need to work on the engine. From what I see now, the predictability punishment of pure puncher isn't high enough. I have seen many fights with fighters throwing a lot of the same punches(or leg kick, which is very widely used) but no counter from his opponent. On the other hand, takedown spam has harsh penalty. If the engine makes it easier to counter "certain strike spam" then things might be slightly better. From what I see, punch + leg kick spam is pretty much the killer in a lot of the lower-end matches, which is kind of bullshit anyway since it cuts off the competitiveness in the lower-end org. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Programming can stop trends, you just need to work on the engine. From what I see now, the predictability punishment of pure puncher isn't high enough. I have seen many fights with fighters throwing a lot of the same punches(or leg kick, which is very widely used) but no counter from his opponent. On the other hand, takedown spam has harsh penalty. If the engine makes it easier to counter "certain strike spam" then things might be slightly better. From what I see, punch + leg kick spam is pretty much the killer in a lot of the lower-end matches, which is kind of bullshit anyway since it cuts off the competitiveness in the lower-end org. Its pretty much that way everywhere. Head punch and leg kick are more accurate and everyone is relying on them heavily. Others are effective just not accurate. Yeah you might be right on some counter added. Also needs to be a way to get takedowns from agresive side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMATycoon Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 ANy word on this Mike? On what in particular? :S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexiZaitev Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 On what in particular? :S i am assuming he is referring to training related things that have been brought up in this thread and in the developer forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 On what in particular? :S Training speed changes, tickers, or anything that may actually come from this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBR Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Training speed changes, tickers, or anything that may actually come from this thread. thoughts along with few other things are already being tossed around in developers area -- wont be something overnight i wouldnt think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 On what in particular? :S I don't F know. This is a piss in the ocean. Keep up the good work. Edit: next day. Ever wake up with the feeling you posted something stupid while out of your face the night before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajperok Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 If we are all playing the same game.... why is "training speed" an issue? Sounds like the same old, "I don't want to fight if my fighter has any weaknesses argument." Of course, it's not phrased that way, but since I've played this game there have been a handful of managers, including the original poster who aren't happy unless it maxed out superman vs maxed out superman. It's not very realistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwynd Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 If we are all playing the same game.... why is "training speed" an issue? Sounds like the same old, "I don't want to fight if my fighter has any weaknesses argument." Of course, it's not phrased that way, but since I've played this game there have been a handful of managers, including the original poster who aren't happy unless it maxed out superman vs maxed out superman. It's not very realistic. While I get what you are saying I think the majority of people are not looking for that. What the OP and many others in this and similar threads are saying is that New Players in particular are likely to feel that they cannot ever compete or will just feel bored shitless if they do not see progress. Even a fast learner in this game is not exactly blazing through. Going from useless to Abysmal shold not take three or four training sessions. Maybe two? In fact Maybe that is a way to work it out that could make everyone happy. Is that it takes two sessions to go from useless to abysmal and 3 to go from abysmal to woeful etc. Add in hiddens like fast or slow learner, quality of gym training and class size and then you can arrive at a pretty fair compromise. Obviously this needs more work as I literally just came up with this idea as I was responding to AJPerok's comment. But that way regardless of total points people will see faster gains at the lower levels and slower at the top. Decline still needs to happen and so on, but this could work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadlyDirk Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 You know what might solve a lot of the problems with fighters not declining, although it would probably take some getting used to. What if tickers didn't reset after a fight? I know I have one guy who is a bit of an issue with tickers at times, he isn't declining, he's still in fact getting better but now and again he'll slip into the red for an odd session and it can be a little tough playing catchup, but at least I know in a couple of weeks he'll have a fight and they'll reset anyway. If they didn't reset after a fight it might be a bit of an issue maintaing the skills and surely if anything that's the most realistic way. It's the constant fights and training camps which really take a toll on a fighter I feel, and that's also where a fighter loses a bit of his edge, after a fight when they are resting up and not training. To me though between this thread and the game speed thread this is the issue here, as I think ajperok said, what does it matter if trainng and game speed is fast or slow if we are all playing the same game and as j666 has repeatedly gone on about, the key here is having fighters begin to decline because at the moment it's not really happening and whether the game is fast or slow it really doesn't matter until that changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwynd Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Well said, and I think that has some merit. I do agree that if ther decline isn't happening as it should then it needs to be addressed. Stu Pidasol also goes on about it. I haven't been here long enough to know if it is working or not as all my fighters are a LONG way from that point. I think that the tickers not resetting after a fight is only good though if it didn't take all week or worse to recover your energy. For a guy like myself that is vaulable training time lost while I wait to have the energy level to train again. Even having really high conditioning doesn't completely ameliorate that time spent doing nothing after a fight. Make it that decline works as it should and that energy recovery post fight isn't as painful and I think that the ticker thing might just work. It would certainly change the way I think about training in some cases, but I'm OK with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadlyDirk Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Well said, and I think that has some merit. I do agree that if ther decline isn't happening as it should then it needs to be addressed. Stu Pidasol also goes on about it. I haven't been here long enough to know if it is working or not as all my fighters are a LONG way from that point. I think that the tickers not resetting after a fight is only good though if it didn't take all week or worse to recover your energy. For a guy like myself that is vaulable training time lost while I wait to have the energy level to train again. Even having really high conditioning doesn't completely ameliorate that time spent doing nothing after a fight. Make it that decline works as it should and that energy recovery post fight isn't as painful and I think that the ticker thing might just work. It would certainly change the way I think about training in some cases, but I'm OK with that. Agreed, to be honest that's probably what I hate most about the game (It's only a minor gripe, I hate very little!), the energy recovery after a fight, they're just sat there for a week at times, sometimes it can be half my roster recovering and they're just doing nothing and there's no reason to even look at them. If it meant training speeds needed to be adjusted accordingly I'd be totally fine with it if it meant a quicker recovery after fights. It's an awkward one, the resting after a fight obviously makes sense, it's just damn annoying! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwynd Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Totally agree. Recovery post fight is totally needed especially if you got whooped up on. I'm totally fine with the lengths of cuts and injuries, but energy recovery.... totally unrealistic model there. It am not a top MMA fighter, more like a well past his prime retired middle carder, but I still recover faster then a MONTH (considering the one week IRL to On month game time) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 perhaps energy level should be taken completley out of the equation for training? that's the way it should have always been anyways. all it does is screw over new players. an example of a new manager and why energy effect on training makes zero sense and hurts the game: new player joins does qfc energy level plummets tries to train energy level stays low does another qfc loses keeps training energy level stays low loses again cant figure out why says this games dumb quits you see how it makes no sense to have it effect training? it's not like it matters to training anymore anyways. ppl train 11 to 12 times a week anyways also, why would you want a new player to take an innitial qfc fight to test out the game, then have to set idle for a week? that's the equivelant of saying "hey, i've got a hot new game that i've just given you a taste of...but now you cant play it for a week" but then you run into the delimma of what to do about recovering from fights. obviously ppl just cant train,fight,train,fight nonstop. so instead of energy being what regulates it....injuries should. it's more realistic and easier to grasp in my opinion. just have injuries hinder training gains and you'll have a much more accurate system --- plus be bringing some added value to the injuries hidden at the same time 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatacre Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 perhaps energy level should be taken completley out of the equation for training? that's the way it should have always been anyways. all it does is screw over new players. an example of a new manager and why energy effect on training makes zero sense and hurts the game: new player joins does qfc energy level plummets tries to train energy level stays low does another qfc loses keeps training energy level stays low loses again cant figure out why says this games dumb quits you see how it makes no sense to have it effect training? it's not like it matters to training anymore anyways. ppl train 11 to 12 times a week anyways also, why would you want a new player to take an innitial qfc fight to test out the game, then have to set idle for a week? that's the equivelant of saying "hey, i've got a hot new game that i've just given you a taste of...but now you cant play it for a week" but then you run into the delimma of what to do about recovering from fights. obviously ppl just cant train,fight,train,fight nonstop. so instead of energy being what regulates it....injuries should. it's more realistic and easier to grasp in my opinion. just have injuries hinder training gains and you'll have a much more accurate system --- plus be bringing some added value to the injuries hidden at the same time Except all of that can be avoided by taking very simple action - read the Wiki (the relevant sections are linked from every single page on the site). If they want to be really brave, they can even visit the forum or chat to ask questions. It's not the hardest thing to work out. If they're that dim and unwilling to make an effort to learn about the game, then they're probably no great loss... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Except all of that can be avoided by taking very simple action - read the Wiki (the relevant sections are linked from every single page on the site). If they want to be really brave, they can even visit the forum or chat to ask questions. It's not the hardest thing to work out. If they're that dim and unwilling to make an effort to learn about the game, then they're probably no great loss... i guess that's true. but how many ppl actually read the wiki for a game that they just stumble upon? although i actually did haha. i read about how the fight engine works before my first fight, and i used common sense when i assumed that a fighter would fight better at full energy....but that being said, i played for probly 6 months before i realized that they trained better when at 90-100%. i trained all my guys consecutive right up to fight time. which would usually see them running down to around 70% or so. then i would rest consecutive session to make sure i went into the fight at 100%. to me it's never made sense how it's setup. to me, i dont see where one way should be any better than the other. it's just a trap for ppl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwynd Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 perhaps energy level should be taken completley out of the equation for training? that's the way it should have always been anyways. all it does is screw over new players. an example of a new manager and why energy effect on training makes zero sense and hurts the game: new player joins does qfc energy level plummets tries to train energy level stays low does another qfc loses keeps training energy level stays low loses again cant figure out why says this games dumb quits you see how it makes no sense to have it effect training? it's not like it matters to training anymore anyways. ppl train 11 to 12 times a week anyways also, why would you want a new player to take an innitial qfc fight to test out the game, then have to set idle for a week? that's the equivelant of saying "hey, i've got a hot new game that i've just given you a taste of...but now you cant play it for a week" but then you run into the delimma of what to do about recovering from fights. obviously ppl just cant train,fight,train,fight nonstop. so instead of energy being what regulates it....injuries should. it's more realistic and easier to grasp in my opinion. just have injuries hinder training gains and you'll have a much more accurate system --- plus be bringing some added value to the injuries hidden at the same time Realistic or not, that is actually worse then the current system. With the current system of energy recovery if you were completely spent after a fight and are looking at 0% energy, then you would need 20 sessions not days, as I had said earlier, to fully recover. That is up to ten full days of doing nothing. While that does suck especially when you consider 1 week equals one month in game. The injuries thing could be much worse. I have recieved as many as 16 days worth of injuries from a fight before and I believe it says somewhere in the wiki that if you have more then 20 days worth of injuries or cuts that you cannot accept any fights until you are under that total again. So let's just go with that number as the upper limit for the purposes of this discussion. I suppose if Mr. Jobber was at 19 days of injuries and took a fight that accumulated 16 days more then he would be far beyond that limit of 20, but we will just go with 20. That is twice is much time sitting out as you could possibly have to sit out due to energy recovery. If you cannot train or if doing so has the same sort of detrimental effects on training as energy levels do currently then it would likely cause people to be sitting out even longer. I have had many cases where I wasn't tired after a fight but I did have 6+ days of injuries and/or cuts. However, there may be some merit to part of what you said in there. If Energy level were taken out of the equation for training, but prevented you from performing well in a fight, it might still prevent people from fighting every week. Because they would be all banged up and wore out from the previous fight. I still think that energy level shoul drop while training and thus making people stop training right before fights to get back up to full energy if they want to make weight and perform well in the fight etc... just take it out of the equation for effecting training. This would have the effect of speeding up training speeds (at least a little bit) without tampering with that. It's probably a minor coding change to make this happen also. Possibly as little as two or three lines of code. Complete guessing on that part as I am not a programmer per se, and I don't know what language the game is written in etc... but it seems that it would be really simple to make this one happen. Fighters who managed to score early finishes and still preserve their energy levels would, of course, still be able to fight on short notice of a week or less following the fight if they really wanted too, I suppose, but then again there are fighters in real life that do that sort of thing. Quite frequently in fact. Hell the guys on The Ultimate Fighter fight up to three times in 9 weeks every season. That would be the equivalent of fighting three times in two weeks in game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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