Ticker Replacements

[Kronix]

If the thought it is to add a extra skill for both standing and ground then I'd like to see faints as a seconadry skill. successful faint results in a high probability counter action. As for the ground I think it's nice to seperate sub defence from grappling D to make it's own secondary. I long for the day that technique would be added to the game. Like you would have to learn triangle chokes to be able to use them or superman punch any one those. Breaking skills further down and expanding the arsenal of fighters. This way it wouldn't mather if 2 guys look the same as they would probably use different techinques. One might be a specialist with a wicked upercut and the other guy has a nasty overhand right.

[Rambo]

Why sub defense? That's another thing a ground fighter is going to need high in order to keep from getting subbed seeing as how he's going to want the majority of the fight on the ground? This only seems like it will hurt a ground fighter more than it will a striker.

 

If a ground fighter needs the skill just as high as a striker would then how does it help the ground fighter at all. If anything that would cut into a bigger chunk of the ground fighters percentage because his skill points need to be spread out even thinner yet.

 

 

Well when you put it that way, every single skill you add is going to hurt the ground fighter, because it's gonna be one more skill they need. If you add a clinching or striking skill - one more skill the ground fighter is gonna need to defend it....

 

 

So to hell with adding stats, that seems equally complicated if not more complicated then increasing the 150 cap... just decrease everybody's stats, and get it over with.

[jacky67]

the best way is to do a cap where skills under wonderful don't count.

[minark]

Well when you put it that way, every single skill you add is going to hurt the ground fighter, because it's gonna be one more skill they need. If you add a clinching or striking skill - one more skill the ground fighter is gonna need to defend it....

 

That's not true at all. You don't have to make an offense skill needed for defense. That makes no sense. Elbows and knees are that way now.

 

And someone has already come up with one good idea using escapes. A true ground fighter who wants to be on the ground won't need it if they only want to stay on the ground, but any stand up fighter who wants the fight on their feet will have to have it. For a ground fighter its more optional.

 

Then defensive grappling can cover sweeps and advancing position and escapes can cover the getting off the mat portion.

[Rambo]

That's not true at all. You don't have to make an offense skill needed for defense. That makes no sense. Elbows and knees are that way now.

 

And someone has already come up with one good idea using escapes. A true ground fighter who wants to be on the ground won't need it if they only want to stay on the ground, but any stand up fighter who wants the fight on their feet will have to have it. For a ground fighter its more optional.

 

Then defensive grappling can cover sweeps and advancing position and escapes can cover the getting off the mat portion.

 

Odds are if you give stand up fighters escapes, fighters will have sensational to elite escapes and there will be multiple threads about how they're broken.

 

 

TD ability helps TD defense. Sub offense helps submission defense. Knees and elbows help defend against knees and elbows. Punches and kicks help defending punches and kicks... a ground fighter with 0 escapes, and a stand up fighter with elite escapes, what do you think is going to happen? Essentially every stat we have is important defensively. You can't just have a skill that you can be useless in with no consequences. Escapes won't be the mystery key ingredient to "fixing the ground game", it's going to help our stand up fighters get the fuck off their backs before your ground fighter can make 1 offensive motion.

 

I think fighters have enough help with the refs standing the fight up, that we don't need any secondary that's gonna help us get to our feet. Defensive Grappling can be considered "escapes" since escaping would be considered defensive, and if you're on the ground that's considered grappling.

 

 

Yes hiddens make a difference, but really linking your exceptional - elite beating a 7-5 guy with a shitty chin really doesnt prove anything. The point I'm trying to make is that, the older fighters have a major advantage against the new breed of fighters, who age more quickly than the older fighters used to, and learn slower, doesn't make any sense at all. Our #1 fighter in the game is 28, that doesnt seem so bad does it? But when you think that he has been in this game for approximately 30 months, (which is 2,5 years) it's way too long.

 

I can show you plenty of fights where the underdog stat wise crushes the one with tons of skills, where hiddens weren't so blatantly obvious. Budo Rei vs War Machine. Waru Kuzuri vs Clomax 2, or these:

 

http://mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=494149 (triple elite maybe quad elite with no blatant hidden disability losing to somebody who isn't even double elite)

 

http://mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=504549 (just a regular upset)

 

Your fighters hiddens and skills should start to decline (based off his injury hidden) after 9-10 years. No set age when your fighter declines, but 9-10 years after they're created they should be declining. Skills and hiddens. If you have an excellent injury hidden, might last 12-15 years before he gets hit with the hidden/skill decline.

 

 

I've decided the most simple route is the best route to take, because adding stats, increasing skill caps, etc. all sound really complicated.

 

 

 

----------------------------------------

 

 

Tickers or no tickers. New stats or no new stats. Nothin like that is gonna change this game very much in terms of the member count. You want to "save the game" or bring in a lot more members, you need to speed up training significantly. If you have to add 50 points to the skill cap in order to do that, so be it. If the discussion is "saving the game" or "bringing in new members" then training needs to speed up A LOT... at least at the lower levels. A new member needs to see his fighter improve a stat after 1 day.

[Goatacre]

Odds are if you give stand up fighters escapes, fighters will have sensational to elite escapes and there will be multiple threads about how they're broken.

 

 

TD ability helps TD defense. Sub offense helps submission defense. Knees and elbows help defend against knees and elbows. Punches and kicks help defending punches and kicks... a ground fighter with 0 escapes, and a stand up fighter with elite escapes, what do you think is going to happen? Essentially every stat we have is important defensively. You can't just have a skill that you can be useless in with no consequences. Escapes won't be the mystery key ingredient to "fixing the ground game", it's going to help our stand up fighters get the fuck off their backs before your ground fighter can make 1 offensive motion.

 

I think fighters have enough help with the refs standing the fight up, that we don't need any secondary that's gonna help us get to our feet. Defensive Grappling can be considered "escapes" since escaping would be considered defensive, and if you're on the ground that's considered grappling.

 

But that's where the skill cap would come into play. The stand-up fighter couldn't simply go for sensational/elite escapes, he would need to sacrifice something else in order to achieve that. As for how it would play out in the game engine, realistically at present that is beyond any of us to accurately foretell given we do not have that level of insight into the game engine that Mike has. For now we're discussing a potential concept, and as for turning that into practicality we have to wait and see what Mike and his programmer could come up with.

[Warwynd]

I think fighters have enough help with the 1.) refs standing the fight up, that we don't need any secondary that's gonna help us get to our feet. Defensive Grappling can be considered "escapes" since escaping would be considered defensive, and if you're on the ground that's considered grappling.

 

Your fighters hiddens and skills should start to decline (based off his injury hidden) after 9-10 years. No set age when your fighter declines, but 1.) 9-10 years after they're created they should be declining. Skills and hiddens. If you have an excellent injury hidden, might last 12-15 years before he gets hit with the hidden/skill decline.

 

1.)Refs do seem to stand the fight up too fast. I have had a Hell of a time getting the fight to the ground with my submission artist (which I use exclusively as a spar bot for the moment.) and when he does get the fight to the ground the very next line is usually, "The ref looks like he might stand the fight up if it continues at this pace" or some dumb shit like that.

 

I am actively working, without doing the sub spam thing, but in reality if I am not sub spamming then the fight gets stood up. Or if the guy on the bottom just lays on his back like a dead fish the ref stands the fight back up because my opponent "wasn't being active enough". Well, fuck! I'm being active and working towards a submission. But the Ref keeps standing me up and putting me in the line of fire so that the striker can beat the fuck out of me some more. Of course after getting my face caved in for another round means that I am much less likely to get the fight to the ground again therefore I become a punching bag the rest of the fight. While this may not directly apply to this thread, I do see the ref stand-up as coming a bit too fast in most cases.

 

2.) Chris is the guy that originally posted that article about this 9 year career life expectancy, and it is what I have been championing ever since. It makes sense and it causes the older fighters to rapidly decline (provided that it is done the right way) once they reach that point. Basically within 6 months to a year of real life they should be hitting their peak. Level off and see much slower development for a while and at around the 2 to 2-1/2 year mark begin to drop off. This can and should be affected by their accumulated injuries and maybe even their injury hidden. Maybe when they get to that point they start getting injuries during training and this could cause the managers to start thinking about retiring them. Things like that. Fighting injured is very bad for fighters as we all know. So knowing that the injuries could crop up at any time after that decline starts might make managers a bit gun shy about continuing to push an aging fighter and therefore we would get both a decline in the old guard's abilities, and a rotation that everyone seems to want.

[minark]

2.) Chris is the guy that originally posted that article about this 9 year career life expectancy, and it is what I have been championing ever since. It makes sense and it causes the older fighters to rapidly decline (provided that it is done the right way) once they reach that point. Basically within 6 months to a year of real life they should be hitting their peak. Level off and see much slower development for a while and at around the 2 to 2-1/2 year mark begin to drop off. This can and should be affected by their accumulated injuries and maybe even their injury hidden. Maybe when they get to that point they start getting injuries during training and this could cause the managers to start thinking about retiring them. Things like that. Fighting injured is very bad for fighters as we all know. So knowing that the injuries could crop up at any time after that decline starts might make managers a bit gun shy about continuing to push an aging fighter and therefore we would get both a decline in the old guard's abilities, and a rotation that everyone seems to want.

 

It wasn't Chris who found that article. I never understood why he always got credit for that. It was a while back in the improvements thread where someone posted that article and Chris read it and talked about how interesting it was and then started using it for some of his ideas on improvements. But either way, this is definitely in agreement with almost everyone. I think Jacky might be the only person who thinks his 78 year old fighter should set the walker to the side and be all elite and never have a hidden decline. Just ask STP. Lol. But degredation is a must whether it be through hiddens or skills. It hadn't previously been a huge issue until recently when fighters began to get older and people noticed that it was a need more and more to cycle out fighters.

 

So in other words, you won't have many people arguing with you on this.

[Tonk]

Holy shit, a lot to read here. I read the first 4 or so pages yesterday and now there are 20. I'm not going to pretend that I've read it all. I will, but just wanted to get my idea out there.

 

I never had a problem with tickers, and after getting used to them, I don't think I've had a negative pop in months. I think it is obvious that tickers drove managers out of the game, which is very unfortunate. I think it is important to realize, if a new change is made, we will lose managers again. I don't think this is a reason to NOT make changes, but it should be considered, and the goal should be to lose as few managers as possible.

 

That all being said, I like the idea of a skill cap, but I think it should be a soft cap, and the actual cap of each fighter is determined by a new hidden. For instance, say the soft cap is 75%. The hidden can put your fighter anywhere between 70% and 80%. Is this a large range? Sure is...pretty realistic though right? I mean, some people just can't learn as well as others no matter how good their teachers are. To think that every fighter can achieve the same level (or anywhere close to the same level, frankly)of skill development is naive. Won't mean they suck and are useless, and other hiddens will help their in cage game. I know this might not be popular with managers who are front runners, because no one will figure out this hidden until it is too late to just scrap the guy, and there are certain managers here who can only operate with the higher skilled fighters. I think this kind of idea would help some of the non top tier orgs. If a manager finds out he has a guy who rolled a 71% skill cap, but has some other good hiddens, he doesn't need to scrap him, maybe he can compete in the middle tier orgs.

 

 

How to adjust the fighters already over this cap, or incorporate aptitudes....beyond what I've thought of so far. Also, I did read someone make an interesting point. Without tickers, once I find out my fighter's "skill cap" and I reach the cap, and am happy with his build, why would I keep in a gym?

[Guest]

Holy shit, a lot to read here. I read the first 4 or so pages yesterday and now there are 20. I'm not going to pretend that I've read it all. I will, but just wanted to get my idea out there.

 

Just so youre up to speed.

http://www.mmatycoon.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=33146&view=findpost&p=399666

 

For your other idea, I think that has already been agreed upon, but with a much lower skillgap, I think it was 78-82% seeing as a 4% difference at the top is big.

[ajperok]

Both statements are true. 31 years of age is not the actual peak... it's just the age that the average fighter has reached the 9 year mark of their careers. Studies have shown that around 9-10 years of fighting professionally is where a significant drop off in ability comes in. Some guys who are far younger than 31 have begun to decline rapidly (I'm talking real life here), while other guys have stayed around well into their 40's. But look closer and most of those guys that are still kicking around in their 40s started later in life.

 

Point is that instead of making it a hard number based on age. It should be a number with some randomization factored into it at around that 9 year mark. Factoring in accumulated injuries and maybe some other factors and you get guys reaching their peak in about 2 years and then leveling off for a bit and by the 2.5 year mark they are beginning an unavoidable backslide.

 

 

Actually in this day, you find very little difference athletically between a 35 year old and a 25 year old. In fact, muscle mass will peak in your mid to late 30's.

Fighters/Athletes don't retire because they just lose their athleticism through aging. Most retire because of injury accumulation and the bodies reduced ability to recover. Their seems to be this misconception that if you run a 4.4 when your 25, that you can't run a 4.4 when your 35.

- maybe you can't, probably because you have some nagging injury that never fully healed

- maybe you can't, because you went running yesterday and now your still to worn down to do it today.

 

That is from a "realism" point of view. The idea that the majority of athletes in contact sports retire from athletic decline is true, however, the reason for that decline is not so much the age as it is the mileage.

[Warwynd]

It wasn't Chris who found that article. I never understood why he always got credit for that. It was a while back in the improvements thread where someone posted that article and Chris read it and talked about how interesting it was and then started using it for some of his ideas on improvements. But either way, this is definitely in agreement with almost everyone. I think Jacky might be the only person who thinks his 78 year old fighter should set the walker to the side and be all elite and never have a hidden decline. Just ask STP. Lol. But degredation is a must whether it be through hiddens or skills. It hadn't previously been a huge issue until recently when fighters began to get older and people noticed that it was a need more and more to cycle out fighters.

 

So in other words, you won't have many people arguing with you on this.

 

The first time I ever saw it was when Chris posted the article in some thread or the other. I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't seeming to take credit for it.

 

Actually in this day, you find very little difference athletically between a 35 year old and a 25 year old. In fact, muscle mass will peak in your mid to late 30's.

Fighters/Athletes don't retire because they just lose their athleticism through aging. Most retire because of injury accumulation and the bodies reduced ability to recover. Their seems to be this misconception that if you run a 4.4 when your 25, that you can't run a 4.4 when your 35.

- maybe you can't, probably because you have some nagging injury that never fully healed

- maybe you can't, because you went running yesterday and now your still to worn down to do it today.

 

That is from a "realism" point of view. The idea that the majority of athletes in contact sports retire from athletic decline is true, however, the reason for that decline is not so much the age as it is the mileage.

 

That's precisely what I am saying. 9 year career length rather than a set age. A guy that started fighting at 18 will start to see decline do to injuries, or general fatigue whatever at around 27 or so. randomize that number a bit and factor in hiddens and accumulated injuries and you get that cycling of fighters that we seek here.

[fbwellman]

Odds are if you give stand up fighters escapes, fighters will have sensational to elite escapes and there will be multiple threads about how they're broken.

 

 

TD ability helps TD defense. Sub offense helps submission defense. Knees and elbows help defend against knees and elbows. Punches and kicks help defending punches and kicks... a ground fighter with 0 escapes, and a stand up fighter with elite escapes, what do you think is going to happen? Essentially every stat we have is important defensively. You can't just have a skill that you can be useless in with no consequences. Escapes won't be the mystery key ingredient to "fixing the ground game", it's going to help our stand up fighters get the fuck off their backs before your ground fighter can make 1 offensive motion.

 

I think fighters have enough help with the refs standing the fight up, that we don't need any secondary that's gonna help us get to our feet. Defensive Grappling can be considered "escapes" since escaping would be considered defensive, and if you're on the ground that's considered grappling.

 

 

 

 

I can show you plenty of fights where the underdog stat wise crushes the one with tons of skills, where hiddens weren't so blatantly obvious. Budo Rei vs War Machine. Waru Kuzuri vs Clomax 2, or these:

 

http://mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=494149 (triple elite maybe quad elite with no blatant hidden disability losing to somebody who isn't even double elite)

 

http://mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=504549 (just a regular upset)

 

Your fighters hiddens and skills should start to decline (based off his injury hidden) after 9-10 years. No set age when your fighter declines, but 9-10 years after they're created they should be declining. Skills and hiddens. If you have an excellent injury hidden, might last 12-15 years before he gets hit with the hidden/skill decline.

 

 

I've decided the most simple route is the best route to take, because adding stats, increasing skill caps, etc. all sound really complicated.

 

 

 

----------------------------------------

 

 

Tickers or no tickers. New stats or no new stats. Nothin like that is gonna change this game very much in terms of the member count. You want to "save the game" or bring in a lot more members, you need to speed up training significantly. If you have to add 50 points to the skill cap in order to do that, so be it. If the discussion is "saving the game" or "bringing in new members" then training needs to speed up A LOT... at least at the lower levels. A new member needs to see his fighter improve a stat after 1 day.

I agree definitely with your point on member count. This isnt gunna increase it or make mike anymore money

 

 

 

I dont really care what happens though

[fbwellman]

Actually in this day, you find very little difference athletically between a 35 year old and a 25 year old. In fact, muscle mass will peak in your mid to late 30's.

Fighters/Athletes don't retire because they just lose their athleticism through aging. Most retire because of injury accumulation and the bodies reduced ability to recover. Their seems to be this misconception that if you run a 4.4 when your 25, that you can't run a 4.4 when your 35.

- maybe you can't, probably because you have some nagging injury that never fully healed

- maybe you can't, because you went running yesterday and now your still to worn down to do it today.

 

That is from a "realism" point of view. The idea that the majority of athletes in contact sports retire from athletic decline is true, however, the reason for that decline is not so much the age as it is the mileage.

Thats true. People just dont magically breakdown at some random age

[Guest]

OK I've slept on it and;

 

1. I don't like raising skills to 170. There are too many potential problems and it's too messy.

2. Other people don't like cutting skills.

3. People want improvements to the ground and clinch and to balance out the fight engine. That wasn't the point of the thread but it came up straight away and has dominated so it's clearly the most important thing to a lot of people.

 

So, I think the best solution is to add two more secondaries. One for ground and one for clinch, or maybe just two for ground. These would be set at 0 points. Adding 2 more skills (when we currently have 21), is conveniently roughly a 10% increase in total available skill points, so someone who has 90% skills now, will have roughly 80% total skills with two additional secondaries added.

 

We would allow people to fill those two new skills up to whatever level they want by taking points from their other skills (probably with some calculation in place to make it relative to their other skills, so a rubbish fighter couldn't add it above 100 points, just like on fighter creation).

 

We can then get this hiddens cap around 78-82% without anyone having to lose any points AND we can improve the detail of the ground game (and maybe clinch if that needs doing too).

 

So if people like that idea, what would the skills be? Split defensive grappling into sub defense and ground control / positioning?

 

Another option would be the addition of a new primary but that's potentially very messy. I'd always intended to add sort of "bonus" skills like karate and judo as a specialism. So it might say has X boxing, X muay thai, x wrestling and x BJJ, with a specialism in Judo. Those would be gained by doing seminars at gyms.

 

So yeah, that's why I don't want to do primaries but I would like to do secondaries. What would people like / is that a goer?

 

I love the idea. Here are the additional secondaries I would suggest:

 

Dividing Defensive Grappling into:

"Submission Defense" - defends submissions

"GNP defense/Positioning" - defends ground and pound, helps advance defensive position

 

Dividing Clinchwork into:

"Clinchwork" - essentially the current clinchwork secondary, minus defending clinch attempts

"Clinch Prevention" - avoids clinch attempts (much like takedown defense)

 

I'm really happy that we are going to make the ground and clinch games more relevent now. Hopefully we can also tweak fight ratings so that ground fights and clinch fights can get rated as well as striking fights do. I agree that a lot of fight fans prefer brawls, but far too many standup fights get rated 100% and far too many clinch and ground fights get rated around 35%.

[Guest]

The problem is that grapplers will still need both those stats which defeats the purpose of adding them in the first place.

[Guest]

Not if it's split into defensive grappling (ground control) and escapes (getting back up)

 

The ground guy won't need them desperately as he wants to be there and it'll mean the striker will have to lose some points elsewhere to have the new defensive skill, which will make it slightly easier on the feet for the grappler

[ajperok]

As a wrestler most of my life.

I think wrestling skills could be divided into:

 

sub-gn'p defense / counters/reverses (ie: sweeps) / escapes (standups)

the negative for "escapes" would be you could possibly end up in a worse position, in some cases even getting "slammed" back to the ground.

 

That would eliminate defensive grappling.

 

I don't know if that would be good for the game? but they are all relatively different things that rely on different skill sets.

 

I know guys who only look for reverses and are terrible at standups, and I know guys that would much rather just escape and try to get another takedown instead of trying to work for a reverse.

[rac2]

ajperok, would do you suggest in terms of additional skills (if any) to improve the clinch?

[Kronix]

Positioning if any is really what needs to be added to the clinch. Right now anyone can throw a punch regardless of position. Clinch battle is much more techniqual. Either used as a leaning tool to drain the strenght or to score the dirty shots. That some one with his back against the cage would be able to dominate the clinch game with strikes is not something you see very often.

 

Ussually you see the guy with the back against the fence try to change position with a whizzer to try and get the upper hand. If you want to improve the clinch game to be abit realistic you gotta add positioning! Now I understand this probably is a lot more work adding a thing like this into the engine.

 

For all you anderson silva fans out there, how bad do you want to be able to get that thai plum and just rain down knees (obviously demands a dominante position). Clinchwork is as wikipedia says it now more a experience based skill. Knowing whats comming to prevent it ("Clinchwork - An overall value. Consider it almost a clinch awareness and experience value, both offensive and defensive."

[DavyJones]

ajperok, would do you suggest in terms of additional skills (if any) to improve the clinch?

 

Foot stomps

[DavyJones]

Seriously though I think we have clinch pretty much covered except for maybe positioning and throws.

[Erik]

ajperok, would do you suggest in terms of additional skills (if any) to improve the clinch?

 

The thing with the clinch (and I suspect I'll see some agreement on this) isn't that it lacks appropriate secondary skills, it's that the sliders and engine could do with some work.

[minark]

The thing with the clinch (and I suspect I'll see some agreement on this) isn't that it lacks appropriate secondary skills, it's that the sliders and engine could do with some work.

 

The only real thing I don't like about the clinch is how much energy a missed attempt takes away and the how difficult it is to get into the clinch. Now personally, I'm not good with clinch sliders. So on the last part that could easily just be me, but I still don't think clinch attempts should be such a huge energy loss. However, I do agree that a missed attempt should open you up to huge clinch counters.

[Lefty]

this is extremely confusing... what on earth kind of skills can u add to the ground game? bottom control/top control that doesnt rly mnake much sense to me. if ur good enough at bjj in general then u should be quite comfortable on ur back or on the top position. if u train a skill enough then u will know the different situations u can get into. defensive grappling could perhaps be removed for something like submissions defense and then gnp defense. this would make a little more sense i suppose because in the standup we have clinchwork and striking defense.

but the way im thinking here may not be good also because it seems like we would have to get rid of defensive grappling and add 3 different new ground secondaries for it to make sense: submissions defense, gnp defense and then transitioning. but thats a bit complicated to add so much and i dont like that idea so if its going to be 2 i guess u could just have def grapple which would be sub defense and then gnp defense and add transitioning which would cover escapes and transitioning/reversing/standing up etc. ppl are talking about like 3 or 4 different secondaries to add and its making my head hurt and will only make the game that much more difficult to figure out and even to train your fighters. i think it should be kept simple and if u eliminate def grapple for 2 seperate skills it will still make the game more complicated but may solve some things on the ground. so my thoughts are general ground defense(call it what u will) and transitioning. these are things that seem like it would make the ground game more realistic

ach im tired though and i dont even know what all u obsessive technical scallywags have been talking about with ur numbers and ur debating and debacling(whatever that is)......