Ticker Replacements

[Widing]

How did this shit start again? I think Mike made his opinions very clear and we had a few days of silence after that, then we get the SAME shit repeated again.

 

Mike has made it very clear that he doesnt like that the fighters have such skills, so we still get Sensational across guys pasted here "what's wrong with this, how is this unrealistic?" Take a wild fucking guess.

[Rambo]

How did this shit start again? I think Mike made his opinions very clear and we had a few days of silence after that, then we get the SAME shit repeated again.

 

Mike has made it very clear that he doesnt like that the fighters have such skills, so we still get Sensational across guys pasted here "what's wrong with this, how is this unrealistic?" Take a wild fucking guess.

 

Then he should of added a skill cap years ago when we were suggesting it. Guess what? He didn't. We predicted triple elites, quad elites, and so many quad sensational fighters that people were going to eventually cry about it. And guess what? Big fucking surprise, people are bitching about it. Stu and I were two of the most vocal users for a cap back then (at least in this thread): http://www.mmatycoon...opic=21843&st=0

 

But back then it was congrats on your quad sensational fighter lol... now it's "OMG your fighter has all exceptional secondaries and is exceptional/sensational/sensational/exceptional - so unrealistic!"

 

hahaha, funny, I hate say it to those who were opposing a cap that I told you so... but I told you so

 

I guess I'll take this time to say realistically there should prolly be a primary cap.

 

 

Not say there's anything wrong with what we have now, but if there's a quad elite... no fighter in the world would be considered quad elite minus Bas Rutten or Chuck Norris.

Thing is you have double elite's already. What do you do? You say hey, no more guys like that. Double Elite is acceptable, they'd just be capped on their other primary's. Granted it should prolly just be a point cap.

 

Examples (these numbers might not be correct, just numbers)

 

Elite = 150 points

Sensational = 130

Exceptional = 120

Wonderful = 110

Remarkable = 100

Superb = 90

Strong = 80

Proficient = 70

Respectable = 60

Competent = 50

 

 

Say the cap was 500

 

You have an Elite Boxing (150) Elite Muay Thai (150) that's 300 points. Sensational Wrestling (130 points) at best you'll have proficient BJJ. So although 3 major strengths, there's a glaring weakness, much like with any elite striker, or elite submission specialist IRL.

 

 

I think realistically, for realism and game benefits, cap of 500 would be acceptable and understandable.

 

 

You know what happened? Nothing. Game continued. All the signs were pointing to this. So I adapted to it. Changed my standards for elite. Changed my perspective so it didn't annoy me when it happened. Now it needs to be changed? Little late, no?

 

If he wants to fix it, he should. Why ask? Don't ask the forums about it, or expect resistance. I've adapted to the nonsense that you can end up with that many elite stats and triple elite primaries by justifying that if you train an aspect of MMA for 8-10+ years then you should know all there is to know about it, so yes, that would technically make you elite in it. You're not going to magically learn something new about your punch technique after training MMA 8-10 years. So you'd reach your peak. The peak in this game seems to be elite.

 

You wouldn't even have to select it to be honest. Just put a cap on it. Basically let somebody train to two elites (tops), maybe 1 sensational and 1 exceptional/wonderful or X amount of total points. Secondaries could still increase to multiple elites, nobody see's secondaries.

What's the different between 140 and 150? Prolly about the same advantage as a superb++ boxer has over a superb-- which is just about none. Having a triple elite fighter or a quad elite isn't realistic, and good luck finding fights on a consistent basis. As I said, double elite would be fine as long as there were restrictions on how far their other primary's can actually go. Doesn't make much sense to have a quad elite fighter in the game. The double elite's are scaring enough people lol I'm not saying put a cap on secondaries, (even though there prolly should be), since nobody can see them.

 

 

A cap is hands down the best way to go. Especially since I've heard there's no deteriorating effects on fighters ability's. You could prolly put a cap secretly in effect and 90% of people who play this game would never even find out.

Like they're at yours lol

 

 

To whoever said it would get boring --- a cap on primary's doesn't mean you can't pop your secondaries. If anything it'll make you train you're weaknesses more on your secondaries and you'll see more pops because you're training something that isn't a high level already

 

 

 

It don't bother me none, I'll live either way. I like the rate training goes now, it's not too fast, not too slow. It just becomes unrealistic when fighters are 25 (or any age) and pretty much on the verge of triple elite (or triple elite).

 

I even tried to come up with my own solution to the inevitable multiple elite problem, since the majority were opposed to the damn skill/stat cap.

 

http://www.mmatycoon...showtopic=21977

 

That was a year and 8 months ago. I said I would live with it either way, and I did. Mike can do just about anything he wants with the damn game and I'll adapt to it. Doesn't mean I won't express my honest opinion on the matter.

Edited November 27, 2012 by CKeppelrun

[ajperok]

Then he should of added a skill cap years ago when we were suggesting it. Guess what? He didn't. We predicted triple elites, quad elites, and so many quad sensational fighters that people were going to eventually cry about it. And guess what? Big fucking surprise, people are bitching about it. Stu and I were two of the most vocal users for a cap back then (at least in this thread): http://www.mmatycoon...opic=21843&st=0

 

But back then it was congrats on your quad sensational fighter lol... now it's "OMG your fighter has all exceptional secondaries and is exceptional/sensational/sensational/exceptional - so unrealistic!"

 

hahaha, funny, I hate say it to those who were opposing a cap that I told you so... but I told you so

 

 

Remember 3 years ago when I said that you shouldn't be able to train weights and cardio for two weeks when your 18 years old, become Elite ++ and then never have to train again for the rest of your fucking life?

- These are the same retards that argued against that with all kinds of moronic ideas.

 

Kepp, you and Stu got it from day 1. It was obvious what this game should look like to stay challenging, and where it was headed if training, skills and fighter life span wasn't balanced out to some semi-realistic level. Where some thought could go into how to design a fighter, a game of strengths, weaknesses and "real tactics" to protect and exploit those attributes.

 

- Yet, like any game you have plenty of dumb shits like above who cried, and whined the whole way every time Mike tried to tone down the assanine uberness. These are the guys who play Madden and make an all 99 skill player and think that is fun, they play video games full of twinks and cheats and feel like they have accomplished something, and they look at a game like this and too fucking shortsighted or stupid to realize the game is stupid when the only reward for success is to play long enough to get your high learning speed fighter maxed out.

 

 

Regardless of what some of these jackasses say, there were a lot more people playing this game before every god damn fighter was Elite, Sensational, Elite, Black. -

I have fighters with 12 Elite Attributes now....

 

This is Superman vs Superman. and it is stupid.

[Warwynd]

75% wouldnt be bad -- here is one of my guys that is almost 70% 2176.65 (69.10%)

Boxing Wonderful(10)-- Muay Thai Remarkable(8)-- Wrestling Wonderful(3)+ BJJ Proficient(22)++ Agility Exceptional(10)- Flexibility Wonderful(12)++ Speed Sensational(21)+ Strength Wonderful(8)+ Conditioning Sensational(4)-- Balance Wonderful(3)- Punches Sensational(13)- Kicks Wonderful(5)-- Elbows Abysmal(26)++ Knees Abysmal(26)++ Clinchwork Remarkable(13)+ Striking Defense Sensational(19)- Ground n Pound Mediocre(0)-- Takedown Off Wonderful(0)-- Takedown Def Sensational(4)-- Submissions Abysmal(23)- Defensive Grap Exceptional(22)+

 

This is a fighter that I could actually face with some of my fighters. They are all lower in total skill points but there are areas where they could actually be able to beat this guy.

 

This fighter is at 86%

 

 

Boxing

Exceptional(20)--

Muay Thai

Sensational(56)++

Wrestling

Sensational(9)--

BJJ

Exceptional(24)+

Agility

Sensational(32)++

Flexibility

Sensational(25)+

Speed

Sensational(20)+

Strength

Sensational(7)-

Conditioning

Elite(44)+

Balance

Sensational(2)--

Punches

Exceptional(40)-

Kicks

Exceptional(15)-

Elbows

Exceptional(14)-

Knees

Feeble(28)-

Clinchwork

Sensational(49)+

Striking Defense

Sensational(21)+

Ground n Pound

Sensational(3)--

Takedown Off

Sensational(8)--

Takedown Def

Wonderful(44)+

Submissions

Sensational(16)--

Defensive Grap

Sensational(14)--

To restrict fighters from getting better stats than that, or from having stats like that, is fucking retarded.

 

There is nothing unrealistic about those stats.

 

Conversely, this guy is totally unrealistic. He has nothing that is not amazing and, baring a lucky KO punch or something, I would have abaolustely no chance in beating this guy even with my, most skilled fighter. And my most skilled fighter also has good hiddens. Intelligent, sick KO power, decent Chin, and Heart.But they would account for nothing against this guy. That is not really the problem in itself, Your guy is probably much lower in ID than mine as well, but he is an entirely unrealistic fighter.

 

You're an idiot.. You have been posting the crap throughout this whole thread.. Mike has already shown you through maths how retarded it is to have fighters look like that..

 

Maybe he should use smaller numbers so you can comprehend what he is saying??

 

Personally 70-75% would be great but most would throw the toys out of the pram with anything lower than 80%

 

I'm not sure why the displayed age of a fighter is so important?? I mean that number could be changed to absolutely anything.. Make an 18 = 25, have the 25 learn at the speed of what an 18yo would and go up from there...

 

And the bullshit about people careers being over to early due to injuries?? Are you serious sportstars are struck down all the time with injuries before 30.. Hell some of them don't even make it through their early 20's

 

Totally agree.

 

by reducing the total skill percentage lower and lower, you are only increasing the "hurry up and wait" period that dominates a fighters career.

 

every fighter in this game speeds his way to 70-80% skills. then his training becomes drastically slower and he really just sets there with little excitement aside from fighting.

 

i agree with ckepplerun. allow fighters to peak at whatever they peak at. 80%, 85, 90, whatever. but we need to shorten the time that they peak. the problems we have in the game isnt that fighters are becoming too good. the problem is that they are staying too good for too long

 

the rise and fall of a fighters career needs to be adjusted. the rise is too steep and the fall doesnt happen. the plateau at the top is the majority of a fighters career and it's watering down the top level. if fighters were peaking and falling regularly then the problem of high skills wouldnt be a problem at all. because fighters would only be facing flawless opponents for a small portion of their careers. but since fighters arent falling, the top is becoming overly crowded. you can only shit in a toilet so many times before you've got to flush it. if you keep plugging in highly skilled fighters and never taking highly skilled fighters out, then yes, of coarse all you're ever going to get is similar matchups. that's just common sense

 

in my opinion, im actually fine with the mechanics of the game. we simply need to make the adjustments necassary to take fighters out of the game. if fighters spent more time "growing" than "peaking" then the matchups would all of the sudden be much more specialized

 

While I mostly agree with what you are trying to say, I disagree with the methos you are proposing.

[Widing]

The point I'm trying to make is that I dont get how do you think this is fun fighting Sensational across guys against Sensational across guys. It isn't. When I started this game my Useless - Useless - Competent - Brown belt was fighting guys like Strong - Useless - Mediocre - White belt. This was an interesting fight because it felt more real, like "If I dont get this guy to the ground ASAP, I will LOSE". Then I eventually got to the top 100 and all my fighters started looking really good, but then it got boring and I quit and just came back. It isn't any fun fighting fighters that are exactly the same as yours, of course it happens in real life too when you have two BJJ experts fighting against each other, or two strikers etc, but in this game when you get to the top, all fighters look exactly the same, and that isn't fun.

 

You say that guys like KJ Noons have elite boxing, but what's KJ Noons wrestling? What's his BJJ? Not elite, not even close.

[Erik]

GSP has great kicks and very good submissions. His physicals would be amazing. His boxing would be considered elite by every MMA standard - Freddie Roach said that GSP, BJ Penn, KJ Noons, Nick Diaz, Andrei Arlovski have the best boxing in MMA. How many of those fighters can GSP out box? How can he not be considered an elite boxer when he can out box just about every fighter he faces? Also GSP has a black belt in BJJ, so that automatically qualifies him as Exceptional BJJ in this game. won't argue with muay thai, but he definitely doesn't have low rated knees or elbows. Just because he doesn't use them, doesn't mean he's incompetent in either. They've got to be considered at least respectable.

 

A year ago I would of 100% agreed with GSP and Exceptional boxing.

 

Of those guys Roach picked, half of them got absolutely mauled in striking matches by guys who very few would consider to be "Elite" (Bigfoot and Rogers over AA, Masvidal over Noons, Edgar over BJ). So you'll understand if I don't put much stock in his picks.

 

Exceptional BJJ in this game also gets "ADCC Champion" on ToTT, the belts and skill matching is pretty nonsensical; the gap between black belts can be huge (see also: the gap between Maia or Jacare and someone like Ed Herman or Sakara). GSP is a legit black belt, but it's not like he's Maia.

 

GSP doesn't have top level subs, not by a long shot.

 

There isn't necessarily an Elite guy in every skill in every division, Elite is like Anderson Silva at Muay Thai or GSP at Wrestling; it's rare.

[minark]

Stu and I were two of the most vocal users for a cap back then (at least in this thread): http://www.mmatycoon...opic=21843&st=0

 

Lol. My favorite part of this entire thread. This is proof of the one and only one time that Stu Pidasol and Chris Karter will ever agree with each other.

[ajperok]

The point I'm trying to make is that I dont get how do you think this is fun fighting Sensational across guys against Sensational across guys. It isn't. When I started this game my Useless - Useless - Competent - Brown belt was fighting guys like Strong - Useless - Mediocre - White belt. This was an interesting fight because it felt more real, like "If I dont get this guy to the ground ASAP, I will LOSE". Then I eventually got to the top 100 and all my fighters started looking really good, but then it got boring and I quit and just came back. It isn't any fun fighting fighters that are exactly the same as yours, of course it happens in real life too when you have two BJJ experts fighting against each other, or two strikers etc, but in this game when you get to the top, all fighters look exactly the same, and that isn't fun.

 

You say that guys like KJ Noons have elite boxing, but what's KJ Noons wrestling? What's his BJJ? Not elite, not even close.

 

Don't pay attention to anyone who is disagreeing with you, because they are just wrong.

Your 100% correct, there will always be people who just don't get it. They are either so selfish (which makes no sense, since we all play by the same rules) or simply feel they know something and have some edge.

 

For the most part I "think" Mike agrees, however he has to be somewhat political because everytime there is a discussion which even remotely talks about having less skilled fighters- there are a bunch of guys who come crying on the forum and threatening to quit. I'm not sure if they even are here for the concept of the game, just training whores who like to brag about how many skill points their fighters are I guess?

[Rambo]

This is a fighter that I could actually face with some of my fighters. They are all lower in total skill points but there are areas where they could actually be able to beat this guy.

 

 

 

Conversely, this guy is totally unrealistic. He has nothing that is not amazing and, baring a lucky KO punch or something, I would have abaolustely no chance in beating this guy even with my, most skilled fighter. And my most skilled fighter also has good hiddens. Intelligent, sick KO power, decent Chin, and Heart.But they would account for nothing against this guy. That is not really the problem in itself, Your guy is probably much lower in ID than mine as well, but he is an entirely unrealistic fighter.

 

 

 

Totally agree.

 

 

 

While I mostly agree with what you are trying to say, I disagree with the methods you are proposing.

 

Yeah, pretty much what I was saying. Agree with it, but not so sure about the method anymore.

 

There's all kinds of ID restricted orgs out there to avoid em. If you had your fighters in private gyms, they would improve quicker. As managers we've all been there. Public gyms, stat disadvantages, I remember my superb boxer Carter Potter with wonderful punches beat the shit out of a granite chin exceptional boxer, and it wasn't a random punch, it was from start of bell to the point he was finished.

 

My fighter can easily be beaten. Sliders + Hiddens are very important. A fighter with better stand up will usually pick him apart if I don't set my sliders properly. He got rocked by a double elite boxing/muay thai and lost the stand up fight, couldn't keep the fight on the ground long enough to win. He got pummeled by an elite wrestler with a brown belt before. He's beatable. He's not a specialist, he's well rounded so I have options to play with come fight time.

 

 

http://www.mmatycoon....php?FID=134470

This fighter of mine is exceptional/exceptional/exceptional/brown without any elite striking stats and only 2 elite physicals with 1 of them being cardio. His last 3 opponents had primaries of :

Sensational/Sensational/Sensational/Brown

Sensational/Elite/Wonderful/Brown

Sensational/Sensational/Wonderful/Purple + Granite chin

 

He's finished all 3 fights. Now an even bigger point to prove is formerly known Bas Rutten now known as Urvin Janzen: http://www.mmatycoon...c.php?FID=71043

 

This FA I picked up had more skill points than any fighter on my roster.

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t287/sfmwp13/1statdelete.jpg

His last 4 losses (2 of them are from same fighter so I'll post 3) are to:

Exceptional/Superb/Remarkable/Purple

Exceptional/Exceptional/Wonderful/Brown

Sensational/Wonderful/Wonderful/Brown

 

Either the game engine is broken, completely broken, or "elite stats" are completely overrated, overhyped, and blown out of propertion. People are making a huge deal about stats because they don't think it's realistic to have multiple elite stats. It's just a word. It's the termonology Mike chose to represent it. Now Mike himself says he doesn't like this, but if Elite Boxing means that you're supposed to be Muhammed Ali or Floyd Mayweather Jr, than the game engine is completely broken, because Wonderful boxers that don't have exceptional or higher punches shouldn't be able to punch elite boxers in the face.

 

http://www.mmatycoon...php?FTID=497866

Wonderful/Strong/wonderful/black landed 3 out of 7 head punches against my double Elite Boxing + Muay Thai (at the time, depopped to sensational++ boxing) who has elite punch technique, kicks, striking defense.

 

I have a fighter with Elite++ boxing, Elite++ Punch Technique+Kicks+Striking Defense, and he's been finished multiple times and punched in the face too many times to count.

 

The examples are endless. Waru Kuzuri and Budo Rei's dominance. Those aren't fighters that have 10+ elite stats. Those are fighters that are winning fights because their hiddens combined with their great managers slider setting ability.

 

 

I don't have a problem with a 80% skill cap, I just think it's a little late now when all the signs were pointing to this day. I suggested a skill cap almost two years ago which people opposed like the plague. I just find it ironic that the same people who opposed it then think it's a good idea now, and that back then you would get congratulated for your quad sensational fighter, and now it's blasphemy and so unrealistic. I think it's a little late to do the cap, considering that more than 200 + users with over 1500+ fighters are past that 80% skill cap... and my biggest concern with the skill cap is that training is gonna become useless a lot sooner than before. Which I'm not a fan of. training is a twice a day aspect of this game, the most active aspect of this game, and to hinder it by any means is something I'm strongly against.

 

Don't pay attention to anyone who is disagreeing with you, because they are just wrong.

Your 100% correct, there will always be people who just don't get it. They are either so selfish (which makes no sense, since we all play by the same rules) or simply feel they know something and have some edge.

 

For the most part I "think" Mike agrees, however he has to be somewhat political because everytime there is a discussion which even remotely talks about having less skilled fighters- there are a bunch of guys who come crying on the forum and threatening to quit. I'm not sure if they even are here for the concept of the game, just training whores who like to brag about how many skill points their fighters are I guess?

 

Considering you can create fighters with that stats Widing proposed, it's not a great example. You still have those fights in the ID restricted orgs. At the top level of competition, in this games "UFC" aka Ascension, EMPIRE, NFC, The Syndicate, etc. you face elite competition that's much more difficult to gameplan against. That's how it should be. I could go to the gym for a few weeks and be competent in every aspect of MMA with a slightly decent coach - hell I would be surprised if I wasn't already competent in every aspect of it, at least mediocre. That would qualify me as 40% skill points in the secondary department?

 

 

com·pe·tent/ˈkämpətənt/

Adjective:

• Having the necessary ability, knowledge, or skill to do something successfully.
  

It's irrelevant anyway. Mike Tycoon should do whatever he feels is right with his game - doesn't mean I have to agree with it - it's his game. Skill cap, no skill cap, more skills or less skills, none of it's going to make me quit over night. If I blame him for anything (which I don't), it's not doing something back then about it before it "got out of control" and waiting almost 2 years to decide that it's unacceptable. It was tragically obvious of what was going to happen, hence my altered perspective on what the word elite meant or represented in this game.

Edited November 27, 2012 by CKeppelrun

[MMATycoon]

Regarding the skill cap in the past, I had no problem with doing it and we discussed it but nobody came up with an idea that worked. Everyone just talked about a hard cap where once you hit it you are done. I hated that and didn't want to do it. Now I came up with a system where you still need to keep training once you hit the cap, we're good to go. Yes it would have been nice to do it a while ago but there are only so many hours in the day and I had a lot of stuff to do this year. Now I have time and want to do this so we either do it or we don't.

 

Regarding the FA with good skills, he may have had crap sliders or hiddens so it's not possible to draw any conclusions from one example. I have mentioned though - once you get to the top skills, there is less difference % wise between a 10 point raw difference, than there is at the lower levels. A higher skilled fighter losing to someone lower skilled like this is actually an example of what I'm talking about. Elite over Sensational is much less important than Superb over Strong as a %.

 

Anyway, from this point onwards, it's either better to do this soft cap or it's not, so there's no point talking about what we did or didn't propose ages ago. Let's discuss that. And for the love of god, can we please stop discussing how realistic X fighter is.

[minark]

Regarding the skill cap in the past, I had no problem with doing it and we discussed it but nobody came up with an idea that worked. Everyone just talked about a hard cap where once you hit it you are done. I hated that and didn't want to do it. Now I came up with a system where you still need to keep training once you hit the cap, we're good to go. Yes it would have been nice to do it a while ago but there are only so many hours in the day and I had a lot of stuff to do this year. Now I have time and want to do this so we either do it or we don't.

 

Regarding the FA with good skills, he may have had crap sliders or hiddens so it's not possible to draw any conclusions from one example. I have mentioned though - once you get to the top skills, there is less difference % wise between a 10 point raw difference, than there is at the lower levels. A higher skilled fighter losing to someone lower skilled like this is actually an example of what I'm talking about. Elite over Sensational is much less important than Superb over Strong as a %.

 

Anyway, from this point onwards, it's either better to do this soft cap or it's not, so there's no point talking about what we did or didn't propose ages ago. Let's discuss that. And for the love of god, can we please stop discussing how realistic X fighter is.

 

My vote is to do the soft cap using additional skills so nobody has to take a decrease. However, if the other gets chosen I won't be butt hurt by any means.

[MMATycoon]

well i would much prefer having an overnight decrease and the whole 80% (or whatever number) skill cap than having 2 new ground skills added in. because if he's going to add in 2 new ground skills its going to be escapes and transitions. i can agree with transitions but escapes doesnt have any place in the ground game.

yes u can choose to "escape" the ground but to me thats either avoiding a submission or just getting up off the ground. And i'll agree that there are plenty of fighters out there that implement getting up off the ground into their gameplan but thats their gameplan not their ability to "escape". if u are against a fighter with better bjj than you, he's going to try to throw submissions out and u are going to try to defend them. your ability to defend them is how well u can defend submissions (defensive grappling) and depending on whether or not u can transition well enough and get into a more favorable position u can get up off the ground. escaping sounds like u roll around and defend a submission and either end up in the same position or standing up or in a more favorable position. same if ur mounted and getting fists rained on u. u buck and struggle out and depending on how well u can defend and if u r good enough at transitioning the same goes. when u train wrestling or bjj theres no coach that will teach you the skill of escaping back to your feet. they'll teach you how to pound a guy from the top, how to submit ppl in various ways and how to defend these things in various positions so u can survive but escaping the ground is something thats up to the fighter. and there's not that many positions u can stand up from anyways. i think

your skill of defending on the ground combined with how well you are able to transition should determine how often or well u can get up off the ground. escapes does not make any sense so me. maybe i am alone here. maybe it is just my opinion. if it is then im not sure i rly care because it seems like an insult to those who practice ground sports to add a skill solely for escaping. call me old fashioned, call me incoherent... idk if i am even saying anything that makes sense to anyone but i have a lot of respect for the way this game works because there are many things that make good sense and there aren't too many things that are too unrealistic so far. to add escapes as a skill seems unrealistic.

 

How would you view Chuck Liddell in his prime? He made sure when he got taken down that he landed in guard, then all he ever did was get back up and punch you in the face. No transitions, no sweeps, no sub attempts. I don't view escapes as a particularly pure or relevant skill to submission grappling because you don't ever try and stand back up in BJJ competion. Certainly not by shimmying up a cage. So no, I agree it's not part of the pure grappling arts but that's no reason to say it's not a realistic part of MMA... in fact I think we're just discussed our way into an explanation of why it's more than valid to split it from existing BJJ related secondaries.

[minark]

 

 

How would you view Chuck Liddell in his prime? He made sure when he got taken down that he landed in guard, then all he ever did was get back up and punch you in the face. No transitions, no sweeps, no sub attempts. I don't view escapes as a particularly pure or relevant skill to submission grappling because you don't ever try and stand back up in BJJ competion. Certainly not by shimmying up a cage. So no, I agree it's not part of the pure grappling arts but that's no reason to say it's not a realistic part of MMA... in fact I think we're just discussed our way into an explanation of why it's more than valid to split it from existing BJJ related secondaries.

 

Escapes is a perfectly legitimate wrestling oriented skill. Hell, its even scored in amateur wrestling. 1 point for an escape in folkstyle which is what most high schools and college rules follow. To say its not a legitimate skill and that a BJJ aspect covers it enough doesn't make sense to me for a wrestling based skill.

[Rambo]

Regarding the skill cap in the past, I had no problem with doing it and we discussed it but nobody came up with an idea that worked. Everyone just talked about a hard cap where once you hit it you are done. I hated that and didn't want to do it. Now I came up with a system where you still need to keep training once you hit the cap, we're good to go. Yes it would have been nice to do it a while ago but there are only so many hours in the day and I had a lot of stuff to do this year. Now I have time and want to do this so we either do it or we don't.

 

Regarding the FA with good skills, he may have had crap sliders or hiddens so it's not possible to draw any conclusions from one example. I have mentioned though - once you get to the top skills, there is less difference % wise between a 10 point raw difference, than there is at the lower levels. A higher skilled fighter losing to someone lower skilled like this is actually an example of what I'm talking about. Elite over Sensational is much less important than Superb over Strong as a %.

 

Anyway, from this point onwards, it's either better to do this soft cap or it's not, so there's no point talking about what we did or didn't propose ages ago. Let's discuss that. And for the love of god, can we please stop discussing how realistic X fighter is.

 

That fighter I released sucked a bunch of donkey testicals in the hidden department, that's for sure. But isn't it realistic for this fighter with the following stats to be........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm kidding. I'm cool with whatever you come up with. I've altered my perspective of elite in the past to adapt to the way this game would progress and function, I can just as easily alter it again. I'm perfectly content with the soft cap of 78-82% based off the hidden. I would like to be able to select which stats to decrease in order to make that cap, if that was possible. Not sure if that'd over complicate it or what.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also concerning the addition of new skills, no issues as long as it doesn't allow you to redistribute the stats to anything other than the new skills.

 

 

Not necessarily in agreement with the skill escapes though, but it doesn't really matter to me either way. Offensive Grappling / Transitioning makes sense. I guess escapes could do as long as it didn't let you pop up out of mount like the incredible hulk.

[minark]

That fighter I released sucked a bunch of donkey testicals in the hidden department, that's for sure. But isn't it realistic for this fighter with the following stats to be........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm kidding. I'm cool with whatever you come up with. I've altered my perspective of elite in the past to adapt to the way this game would progress and function, I can just as easily alter it again. I'm perfectly content with the soft cap of 78-82% based off the hidden. I would like to be able to select which stats to decrease in order to make that cap, if that was possible. Not sure if that'd over complicate it or what.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also concerning the addition of new skills, no issues as long as it doesn't allow you to redistribute the stats to anything other than the new skills.

 

 

Not necessarily in agreement with the skill escapes though, but it doesn't really matter to me either way. Offensive Grappling / Transitioning makes sense. I guess escapes could do as long as it didn't let you pop up out of mount like the incredible hulk.

 

From what I've understood, the skill escapes itself won't be any different then what defensive grappling has allowed. So now defensive grappling will actually be submission and GnP defense while escapes would simply take the getting up aspect from defensive grappling and now be it's own skill.

 

So in other words, the best way I can explain what I'm understanding is that it won't be any easier or harder than it currently is to escape. The only real difference is now instead of only needing defensive grappling, you'll need escapes to stand up. If I'm understanding this wrong, someone go ahead and jump in and correct me. I also remember Mike saying we can tone it one way or the other if we find out it becomes too powerful or too weak.

 

**Edit - So just to summarize how I think this would work is defensive grappling currently covers escapes, transitioning, submission defense and ground and pound defense for the most part. With the new skills being transitions and escapes, what that will basically do is make it so defensive grappling covers submission defense and ground and pound defense while transitions will cover transitioning obviously and escapes will cover escapes obviously. Lol. So the only real difference is it makes defensive grappling a little less powerful by breaking it down into 3 skills instead of 1.

 

As far as choosing what ones decrease in order to gain skill points in these areas, I agree that I think we should be able to choose. Especially since it's something that's being implemented in the middle of many fighters careers.

[Warwynd]

I'm kidding. I'm cool with whatever you come up with. I've altered my perspective of elite in the past to adapt to the way this game would progress and function, I can just as easily alter it again. I'm perfectly content with the soft cap of 78-82% based off the hidden. I would like to be able to select which stats to decrease in order to make that cap, if that was possible. Not sure if that'd over complicate it or what.

 

Also concerning the addition of new skills, no issues as long as it doesn't allow you to redistribute the stats to anything other than the new skills.

 

Not necessarily in agreement with the skill escapes though, but it doesn't really matter to me either way. Offensive Grappling / Transitioning makes sense. I guess escapes could do as long as it didn't let you pop up out of mount like the incredible hulk.

 

Totally agree that you should only be able to put skill points into the new ground sliders.

 

I also agree that popping up from mount should be difficult, but I am left with the understanding that this new skill (Escapes) would not change the way it works currently, so I don't see that happening.

 

From what I've understood, the skill escapes itself won't be any different then what defensive grappling has allowed. So now defensive grappling will actually be submission and GnP defense while escapes would simply take the getting up aspect from defensive grappling and now be it's own skill.

 

So in other words, the best way I can explain what I'm understanding is that it won't be any easier or harder than it currently is to escape. The only real difference is now instead of only needing defensive grappling, you'll need escapes to stand up. If I'm understanding this wrong, someone go ahead and jump in and correct me. I also remember Mike saying we can tone it one way or the other if we find out it becomes too powerful or too weak.

 

**Edit - So just to summarize how I think this would work is defensive grappling currently covers escapes, transitioning, submission defense and ground and pound defense for the most part. With the new skills being transitions and escapes, what that will basically do is make it so defensive grappling covers submission defense and ground and pound defense while transitions will cover transitioning obviously and escapes will cover escapes obviously. Lol. So the only real difference is it makes defensive grappling a little less powerful by breaking it down into 3 skills instead of 1.

 

As far as choosing what ones decrease in order to gain skill points in these areas, I agree that I think we should be able to choose. Especially since it's something that's being implemented in the middle of many fighters careers.

 

Most fighters careers probably, and, as I believe has been stated somewhere deep within the bowels of this thread, we are going to be allowed to redistribute skill points if the new skills are implemented. Frankly, and more than a little selfishly, it would be much better for my sprawl and brawl type fighters to simply employ the skill reduction. I was never oppesed to that in the first place. I just thought it would be a bit unfair if that was imposed immediately. I would have thought that finding some reduction in phases that would steadily and unavoidably reduce those over the mark down to that point would have been a bit more fair. But I really don't care too much which way it goes. I think the adding of new skills while imposing the skill cap is the best all around solution to the situation. And it seems that we have a basic concensus.

[DavyJones]

Most of the people that like the change proposals have already said "yeah lets do this" and moved on from the thread a long time ago (myself included) and now all we have left is the few people that don't like the idea spouting the same things over and over without offering any real good alternatives. All its doing is preventing things from moving forward. When you really think about it are we better off doing nothing at all or would it be better to go forward with the changes. The vote results show that the majority like the idea or think they do. I have to admit I don't think a lot of people really understood what they were voting for/against at the time that they submitted so who knows what the true result would be. I personally believe that a lot more people would be for the changes if they fully understood.

[rac2]

I agree. I think maybe Mike should post a summarizing text with the proposed way to go at this point so we get a better understanding of what's coming and let's just move on.

[ajperok]

Was just thinking what it would be like to design a fighter if I could only get to 70-75% of the max skill points????

 

Holy Shit, it was actually fun to think about this part of the game again!!

So many different ideas, hmmmmmm. sort of reminded me of what I thought this game would be when I first started playing. (75% is still sort of high, but a lot better than right now)

[Grasman]

The latest development path of this thread blows.

[MMATycoon]

I'm going to post in bigger text cos that makes it more important!

 

Not really. OK...

 

Yes, what minark summarised is correct. The calculations for transitioning or escaping isn't changing - it's just looking at different skills, so it won't be any harder or easier if you have the same skill points in escapes as you did in defensive grappling.

 

When redistributing points, you would only be allowed to remove points from existing skills, not add to them. I would also cap the amount you could put on transitions and escapes, to whatever you have as your current Defensive Grappling skill for escapes and some sort of calculated value for transitions, as that would be both an offensive and defensive skill.

[Grasman]

I'm going to post in bigger text cos that makes it more important!

 

Not really. OK...

Now that's been said, and read by you, there is no point in it staying there, since it was negative comment.

 

But, that was my last comment on the subject, at least until we see the results.

 

i.m.o 99% of the changes you have made to the game are good since i started playing and i sincerely hope that will be the case this time also.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Grasman

[MMATycoon]

There were plenty of chances to not do tickers - nobody came up with a different solution that worked back then when we needed one.

After 6 months more thinking I've come up with a soft cap format that I'm happy with so we're going for that instead.

 

The need to do so has been explained plenty of times and nobody is stealing any points from your fighter.

[Guest]

To me the solution is quite simple.

 

Drop the tickers and put training back to where it was prior to the tickers. (maybe a tad faster than it was)

Do a random roll hidden that specifies the fighters retirement age at creation and/or possibly link that to the injury hidden.

E.g the fighter gets a mandatory retirement age somewhere from 34-42 years of age,depending on the random roll,

with that number being decreased slowly but gradually the more the fighter gets injured, giving more value to the "no injury" hidden tick box at creation,

so the more the fighter gets injured the closer he gets to the retirement age.

Retirement age should not drop below 30 though IMO.

 

Yes, you will get the odd triple or even quad Elites, but they will only remain in the game for a finite amount of time before heading to the Bahamas.

 

This means that any new player will have his chance to rise to the top in due time, while allowing experienced players to enjoy the fruits of their hard work and persistence.

 

This will also mean that training will become enjoyable again.

 

this is a quote from the other tickers thread by Grasman and i totally agree with him.

 

this is the system that we need to implement. it's the old system. it wasnt broken, just flawed. it was fun to log in daily under that system to see what improvements you made. only thing that needed to be adjusted under the old system was fighter turnover and learning speed because fighters didnt leave the game and they peaked too early. aging needed to be speed up so that fighters peaked at the right time and for a realistic amount of time...then fall due to some sort of hidden hiddens decline.

 

the major downfall to tickers was that ppl could visually see skills declining. it was like letting the air out of a balloon. if hiddens decline then it's all guesswork. "is my fighter slipping? did i use the right sliders?" this games greatest attribute is it's hidden aspects

[Goatacre]

When redistributing points, you would only be allowed to remove points from existing skills, not add to them. I would also cap the amount you could put on transitions and escapes, to whatever you have as your current Defensive Grappling skill for escapes and some sort of calculated value for transitions, as that would be both an offensive and defensive skill.

 

Probably straying off-topic for this particular thread, but will only existing secondaries be able to be redistributed to transitions and escapes, or from primaries and physicals as well?