Fight Engine Discussion

[rjs2442]

 

This is a really good point, you should not be allowed to reach elite MT with abysmal knees and elbows. The primary skills should cap depending on what level the secondaries that are associated with that primary are at.

I second this

[EzekelRAGE]

 

This is a really good point, you should not be allowed to reach elite MT with abysmal knees and elbows. The primary skills should cap depending on what level the secondaries that are associated with that primary are at.

 

 

I second this

Seems Mike may be ok with implementing something like that.

 

2. Primaries just being a summary of secondaries. I think it's an equally valid concept to what we have now but can you imagine what stink people would kick off if you got rid of primaries? You'd have to remove sparring all together imo. Plus what about people who want to have good MT but don't want to throw elbows? They just end up with worse MT? I tell you what, you guys propose that

Going back to Duphus' post here. Idk what to do with sparring.

 

What are you guys thoughts on how to split the secondaries for the primaries?

 

I think we could go back to what I tried to do with the knowledge thing. And also maybe adjust what skill values mean what for primaries alone. Making them a little more generalized?

 

Below is a chart of what the new system would look like using secondaries for your primaries. The main secondaries for each primary would count 100% towards the total of the primary. Ones that aren't main but still count towards the primary would only count like 50% or 66%. So only half the points you gained in punches would count towards MT.

*I know I probably got a few seondaries wrong for what primary they under, just a rough draft.

 

Couple of example builds and how they would be read under the new system

 

 

 

So, on creation you can have a guy with Sensational boxing right off the bat.

 

These are just rough estimates of how I think it can be broken down. Obviously more categories can be added to give your opponent a clearer view of what your fighter does, or they can just look at your fights? It may be better to just have all new categories for the various ranges for primaries. For example for boxing, since it's guaranteed ppl will have remarkable/wonderful minimum for them, you can just have 0-200 pts be Amateur boxer instead of a range goin from mediocre to sensational.

=======================

 

Random thoughts:

Also what would you do with primary points upon creation? Just add that extra 100 or so points to secondary point pool?

 

Doing it this way would mean a lot less sparing for some fighters maybe? Idk how many sessions ppl spend sparring.

 

This would mess with the cap as well since you would just be counting the points towards the cap double.

 

This would help ground fighters a bit? Takedowns should be a little easier to get if its wondi wrestling/sens tkd d vs sens/elite wrestlin/sense takedowns?

[Guest]

You just have to set the flight about an hour or 90 min in advance.

 

It's a PITA but it's like that for now.

 

I did it from 30mins to 8hrs+ out, so I'm pretty sure that's in the future, mine at least.

 

I'm sure the ppl on the flight he was able to finally get on were in a bit of a shock as he got teleported from my seat to the cage....(Flight was late as I did it in a hurry from my phone) But made the fight and now he is a FA so it all worked out.

[duphus]

 

Idk what to do with sparring.

 

 

Simple sparring increases all associated secondaries evenly, just like a general C/T would physicals. It just doesn't put any points directly into the actual prime as that is calculated from the secondary total. Or you could do away with it, but if someone was wanting everything in a certain prime this way would be a viable choice if you wanted to just spar all the secs up.

 

It's late and will need to review what you posted to comment any farther.

[Rambo]

 

I see your point man, I do... But ya gotta remember this isn't MMAFightingSim it's called MMATycoon. Jets do make sense in the Tycoon side of the game so it's not like they don't make sense but I gotta agree with it being nothing but a hassle. There is no satisfaction in owning a jet other than knowing you spent millions on it or you won in Spin N Win. For graphic creators like me you have the satisfaction of making the skin then after that it's still nothing but an annoyance. I guess it works as a money sink but how many people have actually bought jets recently? Hell I am pretty sure a lot of people aren't even bothering right now and just canceling their auto-flight and getting teleported for free and I don't blame them. Mike never did get back to us about confirming whether you take an energy hit or not. I am 99% sure you just get go DBZ and instant transmission to the fight.

If there is anyway the flying aspect of the game can be improved on I might be behind that but for me at the moment setting flights is more of a hassle than anything else.

 

 

You do take an energy hit for being auto-flown. The further away the city, the bigger the energy hit.

[madbob]

2. Primaries just being a summary of secondaries. I think it's an equally valid concept to what we have now but can you imagine what stink people would kick off if you got rid of primaries? You'd have to remove sparring all together imo. Plus what about people who want to have good MT but don't want to throw elbows? They just end up with worse MT? I tell you what, you guys propose that

 

 

Why do away with sparring?

 

Thinking about it and seeing a few other post, you dont need to get rid of sparring for this.

 

Just that the prime is a result of the secondaries. So you secondaries define the primes cap. I think someone said that. So meaning sparring is still valid like it would be now just that at a certain point you dont gain any more prime points if the secondaries dont go up. But with sparring you get secondaries up a bit, so in reality i hope the prime goes up with it as well.

 

Meaning each of the prime`s has their seperate cap depending on the secondaries. That would make Sparring not useless it would just make it at a certain point as not effective as it might be with a young fighter. or people training secondaries and prime together.

 

Would be the same in rl as well i guess. You train something specific (secondaries), to then put it to use in sparring session (getting the prime up), If you then implemented the thing into your technic and just keep sparring at some point you dont get better fast enough anymore, since you dont add anything new to you overall understanding of the thing you sparring. (corresponding secondary to the prime)

 

That would also mean depending on the numbers you would use there has to be a limit how many points someone might be able to put in prime`s on creation. So i cant create a fighter with 110 Boxing, but then not put any points in Striking or Striking Def Some goes for the other ones. Like most people do is do Kicks and Clinchwork 110 then put 110 points in MT. Seeing as those are just 2 of 4 skills counting for the MT skill you are only able to put lets just say 90 point in MT on creation, because the cap on the prime doesnt allow it to go higher, since there are not enough secondary points. Now you can still Spar and get MT up but it would go slow. If you now just train the secondaries Kicks and Clinchwork to Elite you might be able to get MT to Remarkable or Wondeful, but without going Elbows and knees you will never reach Elite.

 

The thing that had to change then would be that with training Secondaries you dont gain points in your Primary you just raise the cap. Sparring the Primary actually puts point into it. Seeing as what i wrote is almost what we have now. lol

It should just not be able to be elite in a Primary if you dont know all the skills.

The numbers and everything in combination need to be figured out, so it is a good balance. Since some Prime`s dont have the same amount of secondaries as others.

 

Should we maybe create a topic in the improvement just for this, so the brainstorming on he matter is easy to find?

I scrolled through so many sides and i bet i missed one or two post on this i missed.

[edwardsfan]

I like the idea that sparring points counts 1.375 points toward cap. Seems you could just get more specific with that.

 

It could be a running adjustment. Boxers seem overpowered? The points being utilized specifically by boxers could count 1.375 towards cap. Equalize it that way.

 

Ex:

Punch tech = 1.375

Kicks = 1.375

Elbows = 1

Knees = 1

Clinch work = 1

Striking defense = 1

Takedowns = 1

Takedown defense = 1.375

GNP = 1

Subs = 1

Defensive grappling = 1

Transitions = 1

Escapes = 1.375

 

Since Mike has already suggested this as an adjustment for primaries it leads me to believe it's probably not difficult to program.

 

You could also go the other way with it. Ex: you could lower subs down to .875 if you wanted.

 

Over time you could balance things out without adding more skills or locking primaries to secondaries (which I personally am against).

[762x39]

I still think that Duphus's idea sounds like the best one I have heard. It would give you the most diversity in fighters and keep it realistic. That is what everyone seams to want.

 

I don't like the primary skill counting as more points toward the cap then secondary skills. I already don't like losing skills for physicals but if you are going to cut the other skill cap to that would really suck. That is exactly what changing the primary value would do.

 

I am willing to give the changes to physicals a try but I like that the fighters can be skilled in more than one thing.

[KingEpicity]

No one likes the idea of more skill points for secondaries and less for primaries? I think that would be the best route to having true diversity and having ground fighters just as effective as stand up fighters. Of course it requires Mike to give all three a separate cap.

[edwardsfan]

If ground fighters have more skills they must train, then the only way to balance it out without adding more skills for the stand up fighters, is to make the points going into the standup fighters skills cost for more....or make the extra skills required for ground fighters cost for less

[EzekelRAGE]

If ground fighters have more skills they must train, then the only way to balance it out without adding more skills for the stand up fighters, is to make the points going into the standup fighters skills cost for more....or make the extra skills required for ground fighters cost for less

I think what Duphus suggests sorta fixes the problem about the skills for standup fighters vs ground fgihters doesn't it? The main problem in the current system is that a standup fighter can have elite level wrestling/bjj with just high td/def g/trans and sparring.

 

New system - you can't have only elite/sens tkd d/def g/trans and still have elite wrestling.

[edwardsfan]

I think what Duphus suggests sorta fixes the problem about the skills for standup fighters vs ground fgihters doesn't it? The main problem in the current system is that a standup fighter can have elite level wrestling/bjj with just high td/def g/trans and sparring.

 

New system - you can't have only elite/sens tkd d/def g/trans and still have elite wrestling.

I like the fact that you can create your fighters however you want? Duphus idea, for the most part, you can't.

 

And Duphus idea would probably take major programming and still may not get it right. What I'm talking about is taking mikes idea and expanding it....the game isn't fundamentally broken to warrant a change of that level. It's simply imbalanced. Ground fighters have a extra skills they must train.

 

If it takes 1750 points to make an effective stand up fighter and 2000 points to create an effective ground fighter, then the task is getting them equal. Turning the 1750 vs 2000 into 2000 vs 2000. Mikes 1.375 idea does that.

[EzekelRAGE]

I like the fact that you can create your fighters however you want? Duphus idea, for the most part, you can't.

 

And Duphus idea would take major programming and still may not get it right. What I'm talking about is taking mikes idea and expanding it....the game isn't fundamentally broken to warrant a change of that level. It's simply imbalanced. Ground fighters have a extra skills they must train.

 

If it takes 1750 points to make an effective stand up fighter and 2000 points to create an effective ground fighter, then the task is getting them equal. Turning the 1750 vs 2000 into 2000 vs 2000. Mikes 1.375 idea does that.

1. You can still create w/e fighter you want under Duphus' system.

 

2. I actually don't mind your idea. I had a similar one when mike mentioned he could just weight thing differently for the cap. I msged him to see if he could go more specific lie punches etc. Instead of penalizing standup fighters my idea wouldve just reduced the weight the point gave to overall. It wouldve involved you maybe selecting what your fighter specialized in at creation. Then, depending on what you chose, the points would be weighted less towards the overall. So if you chose a bjj guy. instead of subs counting 1 pt towards the cap, it would only count like .75 or something like that.

 

 

Thinking it over, you would have to leave things like Sd (when it comes to making them weigh more towards the cap) alone because it is needed too much for everyone. But you could do things like if you chose a ground fighter upon creation, you would weight things like knees/elbows more heavily toward the cap since he is a ground fighter. A guy with SnB specialist would have subs count more(1.3 instead of 1). Maybe trans on the ground a little more as well. 1.1 isntead of 1?

[edwardsfan]

1. You can still create w/e fighter you want under Duphus' system.

 

2. I actually don't mind your idea. I had a similar one when mike mentioned he could just weight thing differently for the cap. I msged him to see if he could go more specific lie punches etc. Instead of penalizing standup fighters my idea wouldve just reduced the weight the point gave to overall. It wouldve involved you maybe selecting what your fighter specialized in at creation. Then, depending on what you chose, the points would be weighted less towards the overall. So if you chose a bjj guy. instead of subs counting 1 pt towards the cap, it would only count like .75 or something like that.

The only thing I would see as being an issue with selecting a skill to specialize in, is strikers already hold an advantage of less skills they have to train. Which I thought everyone was in aggreance on. Then if you give them an opportunity to train those fewer skills easier, it only expands the advantage.

 

Really I think it would even out if only takedown defense and escapes counted more. All the others could remain counting 1 for 1

[KingEpicity]

The main issue when it comes to strikers vs grapplers is always going to be the amount of secondaries it takes to have a complete fighter. It's way too easy for a striker to get def grap, transitions and escapes to elite along with everything else and ignore everything else. This allows them to nullify the ground game for the most part because grapplers don't have complete builds. I know people want to keep looking at the game engine to fix this but no matter how many changes you make in the engine to make grapplers more effective its not going to change the real issue it's just going to make the balance shift to grapplers in the fight engine when it should be equal, imo. The balance in the actual game engine is closer to equal now then it's ever been since I have been involved in the game. The problem is grapplers have to sacrifice an integral part of their stand up or physical game or only become a part time specialist with just submissions and no TDD.

 

However, simply raising the overall cap won't solve the issue it would just make all the fighters the same. This physicals change while more realistic isn't going to make things easier for grapplers either. I still think 70% is not realistic considering remarkable across the board is pretty b.s. for going equal. I would say 80% would be more realistic and still make things more diverse than they are now but I am getting off topic.

 

You can't just raise the cap and no one wants another yet another striking based secondary to have to train to balance it out as that would make training fighters even longer.

 

Realistically, most stand up fighters know ground n pound and/or submissions and still know how to sprawl and get up(escapes). These skills are ignored in most stand up builds because they are a waste of points. If you're going to start giving things separate caps then give secondaries a separate cap and actually allow fighters to train up more than 8 secondaries. Grapplers should be able to have ground n pound, submissions and takedown defense. At the very least they should be able to have 2 of them. Strikers should be able to have elbows, knees, submissions or ground n pound and not just have them be a luxury. The current go to build for strikers is all ground defense and punches, kicks, clinchwork, SD to elite. There is no diversity there it's just simple kickboxing and sprawl n brawls.

 

Let fighters train up more secondaries and have the hard decision to make be the primaries. The primaries realistically should decide the true build of a fighter yet most stand up fighters end up Elite/Elite/Elite/Black or Exceptional. I have even seen grapplers with Sens/Sens/Elite/Black. That is not diversity and we keep looking at the secondaries to bring more diversity but imo we should be looking at the primaries. No one should have Elite everything in primaries. Every champion in the UFC has a hole somewhere.

[edwardsfan]

.....

 

No one is suggesting adding extra skills?

[MrGoodkat209]

Where did we land with clinch takedowns and normal takedowns? I want a Fedor style fighter. That's the Pride Fedor, not the one that fought Moldanado, I almost cried in that first round!

[Timmy]

I'm all for primes being the consequence of secondary skills and I'd vote for that as described above. You could still spar and get improvement in associated seconds and physicals. More realistic (no elite wrestlers with no takedowns). Sounds good.

 

But now, A CAN OF WORMS!...

 

If that WERE to happen, then wouldn't that be the perfect opportunity to introduce other martial arts into the game? Each with a unique character in terms of secondaries. Kung Fu, Karate, Judo and Sambo perhaps? If the change to "passive" primes goes ahead, then it shouldn't be too dificult to do this? Maybe?

 

A big bold expansion in the game's range. Sure would be a shot of adrenaline into Tycoon

There's your variety.

I'd probaly go Karate and JJ. What about you?

[madbob]

I'm all for primes being the consequence of secondary skills and I'd vote for that as described above. You could still spar and get improvement in associated seconds and physicals. More realistic (no elite wrestlers with no takedowns). Sounds good.

 

But now, A CAN OF WORMS!...

 

If that WERE to happen, then wouldn't that be the perfect opportunity to introduce other martial arts into the game? Each with a unique character in terms of secondaries. Kung Fu, Karate, Judo and Sambo perhaps? If the change to "passive" primes goes ahead, then it shouldn't be too dificult to do this? Maybe?

 

A big bold expansion in the game's range. Sure would be a shot of adrenaline into Tycoon

There's your variety.

I'd probaly go Karate and JJ. What about you?

 

Interesting Idea, could be open for it

[UniConor]

I really like this idea of primaries being a collection of the secondaries and think it should have it's own thread so we can show our support and spread ideas for it there.

 

Mike has already said "you can go and propose that one" since he is worried about the backlash. So who wants to?

[Timmy]

 

Interesting Idea, qould be open for it

 

I really like this idea of primaries being a collection of the secondaries and think it should have it's own thread so we can show our support and spread ideas for it there.

 

Mike has already said "you can go and propose that one" since he is worried about the backlash. So who wants to?

 

+1 me and get that thread started then guys

[edwardsfan]

If you want your primes to be a reresentation of your secondaries, then train your fighters that way. No programming required lol

[predicted]

Why not have the same system we have now, but instead of the primaries being only representatives of your secondaries, they are capped at the average of the relevant secondaries.

[edwardsfan]

Why not have the same system we have now, but instead of the primaries being only representatives of your secondaries, they are capped at the average of the relevant secondaries.

That's sensible.

 

It works in all regards. It's realistic. It's practical. It works in a game sense. I like it.

[Bwang]

If learning speed is going to be linked to number of classes done rather than age, I hope that doesn't impact on slow learners to make them even slower than now.