JakeF Posted March 22, 2017 Report Share Posted March 22, 2017 I'm game for every change that makes fights more interesting and for this to happen I think there should be changes towards having unbalanced fights - for example high boxing vs high bjj - this could end either with a KO for the boxer or with a sub for the BJJ. As it stands now, you just need high wrestling+bjj, def grappling on a striker and you shouldnt worry a lot about getting subbed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentor Posted March 22, 2017 Report Share Posted March 22, 2017 As i mentioned, the problem is that fighters are too similar, which means less strategy involved. Adding a cap for physicals won't solve this. Fighters will be still very similar. Also, if you reduce the physical skills, it will lead to less finishes (which is what you want) because KO power will be less of a factor, submissions will be less likely as well due to the lowered flexibility. In short? More decisions which is what you do not want. I think you should seriously consider what you want, because the change being proposed is not going to lead to what you are looking for. I honestly think this decision should be reconsidered, i see this leading to masses of issues in gameplan and the way the game is played. We will need to make changes to things such as the hiddens as well if we do this because the last thing we want is less finishes. If we alter the hidden's weight, it will mean that we will need to alter the amount of points you can add when picking hiddens.......................................this change creates a HUGE knock on effect on multiple other parts of the game. Please avoid doing this. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeF Posted March 22, 2017 Report Share Posted March 22, 2017 As i mentioned, the problem is that fighters are too similar, which means less strategy involved. Adding a cap for physicals won't solve this. Fighters will be still very similar. Also, if you reduce the physical skills, it will lead to less finishes (which is what you want) because KO power will be less of a factor, submissions will be less likely as well due to the lowered flexibility. In short? More decisions which is what you do not want. This works both ways, cause lower flexibility = lower subs defense, lower agility = easier to KO, etc. I think if you lower the physicals, then the hiddens will start playing even bigger role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
listerman Posted March 22, 2017 Report Share Posted March 22, 2017 In terms of fixing the economy, I just wanna concentrate on doing one thing first to get back into the swing of things then we'll try and tackle that in a bit.... it'll require a lot of discussion first. I think someone needs to explain to me what is currently wrong with the economy. I keep reading about people complaining that 15 VIP days for sacking a fighter is too much, that new managers lack the money to do business, but yet, the economy is broken and there's too much money going around in the game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 22, 2017 Report Share Posted March 22, 2017 You are equating ingame cash with out of game cash. Someone like me who has desperately tried to rebuild my roster keeps getting stymied. I've now slowed my roll which puts less fighters in the pipeline.I'm trying to ensure I have enough in my managers account to buy another year of VIP ingame and function after... I've got 6 slots available + 4 spar bots that could go at anytime. But I can't use those slots.. just popped a learning speed of 4.5, that fighter will never mature. Got another one in the QFC tourny since it was near full.. but if he doesn't pan out, that's 5 to 10 days of VIP gone. I don't intend to make another fighter until mid-April. As it stands now 15 days because you have to sack fighters that suck balls is a high price when doing a rebuild, some folks may say fuck it and not try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentor Posted March 22, 2017 Report Share Posted March 22, 2017 This works both ways, cause lower flexibility = lower subs defense, lower agility = easier to KO, etc. I think if you lower the physicals, then the hiddens will start playing even bigger role. I think this needs to be tested, but i am with the impression that lowering the physicals will lead to less finishes, not more. I think you can agree that this will lead to even more one dimensional fighters though right? If you cap the physicals and leave the total points the same as it is now. As for the "broken economy" debate, what is broken? You cannot come to a game which is over 8 years old and simply change how the economy works. The only problem we have with the economy at the moment is that there is not enough places to spend money. Other than the gym costs, supplements and clothing, fighters have very little in terms of where to spend their cash. Technically planes are the money sinks, but with travel basically being disabled, the planes are essentially obsolete now. More places to spend money is what we need (in other words new features, something we have not seen in years), the economy is fine as it is now. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 Also, Mike, do you think this change will affect the % of fight finishesh at top level? I am with any change that reduces the amount of decision outcomes. At the top level of MMA and boxing, the majority of high level fights end in decision. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 This works both ways, cause lower flexibility = lower subs defense, lower agility = easier to KO, etc. I think if you lower the physicals, then the hiddens will start playing even bigger role. This isn't a good thing. Hiddens are already the majority factor in fights. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 I think someone needs to explain to me what is currently wrong with the economy. I keep reading about people complaining that 15 VIP days for sacking a fighter is too much, that new managers lack the money to do business, but yet, the economy is broken and there's too much money going around in the game? People don't have anything to spend their money on, so they think everything is broken. The current economy allows newer managers to compete earlier. Especially with people like me who toss noobs a ton of cash for free to open private gyms. I don't think "broken" is the case. Orgs / ppv / shit like that might need tweaking, but I wouldn't really know cuz I haven't been involved with any in a long time. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeF Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 At the top level of MMA and boxing, the majority of high level fights end in decision.They do, but not as often as here. This isn't a good thing. Hiddens are already the majority factor in fights.No one said that would be a good thing so this change should be reconsidered. This game needs some skill redistribution, but I dont think that physicals are the best area of change. Afterall, in the end we would have again fighters with same builds and same stats, only probably with physicals going down the importance of hiddens would go up as mentioned. Id say cap primaries so it wouldnt be possible to have 4x elite. Put a limit at 500-520 pts or even lower so you could have 1x elite, 1x exceptional and 2x remarkable or however you like to distribute them by training, then let the rest 80-100 pts be available to train secondaries. This should make a lot more interesting matchups between different fighters, because atm 80% of the fighters look exactly the same. Also some change should be considered with the weight influence on speed/cardio/power etc. in order to be given less disadvantage to fighters who need to cut weight. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 They do, but not as often as here. If anything, finishes are much easier and more frequent in tycoon than real life. Due to computer generated, set in stone, concrete stats we refer to as hiddens. There's a lot of variables (health, diet, cardiovascular energy, mental state of mind, etc) that constantly alter in the real life fight game from fight to fight. Look at the top 10 P4P in this game. Most of their wins come by finish. Only two who have more Dec wins than finishes are the grapplers. http://www.fightmatrix.com/ufc-records/ufc-fight-outcomes-by-weight-class/ ^^^ evidence that I'm right. Only weight classes with more KO's than decisions are LHW and HW. MW finishing rate is much more versatile with subs and KO's but every other w/c is around the 50% finishing rate marker, give or take. http://www.mmatycoon.com/statsfights.php go to worldwide. We have a 67% finish rate (non-qfc) in this game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeF Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 Dunno man, doesnt feel like it. Top 10 p4p have more finishes but they are the best fighters in the game so it is something normal. Overall stats imo are irrelevant due to the can crushing that happens in QFC and also in some orgs. Plus, correct me if i am wrong, but those stats cover periods with different fight engine settings, while we are discussing the current one. The UFC stats that you have shown as a reference show only two male divisions with over 50% decision outcomes - featherweight with 54% and flyweight(a class that isnt available in the game) with 62%. I just checked Syn's last 5 events. If you dont take into consideration the Heavyweight and Super Heavyweight fights(there KOs work fine imo), you wont find an event with over 50% finishing rate - only Syn 510 has 3/6 finishes. But then you gotta check Syn 511 and you will see 10 decisions. Same goes for CEC's last 5 events - only one of them has 50% finishing rate, while there are some with 7-8 decisions. Trinity's events show similar stats with only T177 having the amazing 7 finishes. Really dont know, havent got the time to check more results and outcomes, but i have the feeling that lower weight classes lack finishes compared to the reality. But anyway, fuck the reality, it is just a game - wouldnt this game be more interesting and fun to play with slightly more finishes than now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 Those are non-QFC statistics I gave you. Not the QFC ones. I favor realism and realistic fight simulator over Mortal Kombat. There are plenty of finishes. Look at your finishing rate. Look at most top managers finishing rates. Compare it to real life. How often do you see an entire snoozefest of a card in UFC where everybody goes to decision? It happens, it's happened, and it's much more rare to happen in tycoon. Idk why I'm wasting my time because I feel like regardless of what stats or facts I present you, you're just going to dismiss them to stand by your opinion even though it's an incorrect assessment of the current fight engine.. Syn 514 --- http://www.mmatycoon.com/orgeventpublic.php?EvID=881091 --- 5 KO's 5 decisions Syn 513 --- http://www.mmatycoon.com/orgeventpublic.php?EvID=880738 --- 5 KO's 5 decisions Syn 512 --- http://www.mmatycoon.com/orgeventpublic.php?EvID=880737 --- 2 KO's 1 sub 7 decisions Syn 511 --- http://www.mmatycoon.com/orgeventpublic.php?EvID=879999 --- 10 Decisions Syn 510 --- http://www.mmatycoon.com/orgeventpublic.php?EvID=879907 --- 6 KO's 4 decisions Syn 509 --- http://www.mmatycoon.com/orgeventpublic.php?EvID=879906 --- 5 KO's 1 sub 4 decisions Syn 508 --- http://www.mmatycoon.com/orgeventpublic.php?EvID=879594 --- 5 KO's 5 decisions Now go to EVO EVO Megajugs bday bash --- http://www.mmatycoon.com/orgeventpublic.php?EvID=881502 --- 2 KO's 2 subs 5 decisions EVO 304 --- http://www.mmatycoon.com/orgeventpublic.php?EvID=880421 --- 3 KO's 7 decisions EVO 303 --- http://www.mmatycoon.com/orgeventpublic.php?EvID=880749 --- 2 KO's 1 sub 7 decisions EVO 302 --- http://www.mmatycoon.com/orgeventpublic.php?EvID=880422 --- 5 KO's 5 decisions EVO 301 --- http://www.mmatycoon.com/orgeventpublic.php?EvID=880195 --- 4 KO's 5 decisions EVO 300 --- http://www.mmatycoon.com/orgeventpublic.php?EvID=879590 --- 7 KO's 1 sub 2 decisions EVO 299 --- http://www.mmatycoon.com/orgeventpublic.php?EvID=879524 --- 4 KO's 1 sub 5 decisions Now we might get the comment, not enough subs, but that's because most people build strikers. that could be purely management/user bases fault at this point because it's easier to build strikers and what not. I do think there could be a tweak to subs to make them more efficient, but it's hard to get a grasp on it due to the mysterious ground sliders and ref stand ups, and all that nonsense. subs are certainly more 'random' and unpredictable than KO finishes. Go to the last 10-15 UFC cards. Pull the results please. How many finishes, how many decisions, how many subs. I'm not gonna do it, but I know they're not that far off. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 UFC 76: Knockout --- 7 decisions 3 subs 0 KO's UFC 94: --- 8 decisions 2 KO's of course I didn't thoroughly scan through this. also the UFC doesn't match up fighters based on skill. where managers in tycoon decline certain fights if too uneven, especially in the top orgs. primaries and stats are usually pretty even. comes down to hiddens and sliders more often than not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeF Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 Belfort vs Gastelum - 7 finishes 5 decisions Woodley vs Thompson - 6 finishes 5 decisions Lewis vs Browne - 5 finishes 6 decisions Holm vs de Randamie - 1 finish 9 decisions TKZ vs Bermudez - 5 finishes 5 decisions Shevchenko vs Pena - 8 finishes 4 decisions Rodriguez vs Penn - 6 finishes 6 decisions Nunes vs Rousey - 3 finishes 6 decisions Waterson vs VanZant - 4 finishes 9 decisions Holloway vs Pettis - 6 finishes 6 decisions Have in mind that many decisions come from women and flyweight fights. Anyway, you are continuing to ignore the things I say. I know those were non qfc stats, but I said that a lot unfair fights and missmatches happen in ID orgs. The good finishing rate you are trying to show in top orgs comes mainly from heavyweight fights where KOs work fine as I already said. Check the finishing rate of lower weight classes and you will see it is far away from reality. And one last thing, I respect and dont dismiss the stats you are presenting, but I try to look under what circumstances are those stats produced. To get a fair view on fight outcomes I think we should ignore fights in ID orgs because as you know there frequently happen fights of wonderful MT + white bjj belt versus useless MT + brown bjj belt - a fight that is almost impossible to end as decision. Id like to slightly alter my initial statement because it seems that u didnt read my posts carefully enough or you just ignored them but lets say I am okay with overall finishing rate, but disappointed with the finishing rate of everything under 185 lbs(or maybe even 205) at top orgs. Yes, it is normal lighter fighters to produce less finishes, but here they are producing very low amount compared to the reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 I'd love to have flights fixed so I don't have to constantly cancel them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambo Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 Id like to slightly alter my initial statement because it seems that u didnt read my posts carefully enough or you just ignored them but lets say I am okay with overall finishing rate, but disappointed with the finishing rate of everything under 185 lbs(or maybe even 205) at top orgs. Yes, it is normal lighter fighters to produce less finishes, but here they are producing very low amount compared to the reality. Is that due to the game engine? Or is it due to the manager setting conservative sliders to try and squeeze wins out and keep streak alive rather than gamble and waste energy going for KO? It aint really the engines fault if fighters at the top level aren't finishing fights. Some fighters just don't have good KO power. Fabian Hoi is a lighter guy who finished opponents. He had big KO power and the manager rolled the dice. Most managers aim for victory by going towards the path of least resistance. Based on stats I provided and you provided, I don't feel the "game lacks finishes at high level" pov is accurate at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentor Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 Based on stats I provided and you provided, I don't feel the "game lacks finishes at high level" pov is accurate at all. Frankly, i never thought we had an issue with top end KO finishes. I do not think we have fewer finishes in Tycoon than we do in real life, especially on the higher weight classes. I think we do not have enough submissions in the game, that is probably right, but i think we need to compare with real life, i bet you we are not too far off. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marky Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 I just wish something could be done to balance the engine again, some little tweaks could be enough. Just a little attention, please. The issues are of course the escape spamming and the nerfing of counter takedowns, giving strikers a free pass to focus just on aggro striking. Have been waiting for a long time and this has already begun eating away the joy of this game for myself. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjornmma1 Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 I just wish something could be done to balance the engine again, some little tweaks could be enough. Just a little attention, please. The issues are of course the escape spamming and the nerfing of counter takedowns, giving strikers a free pass to focus just on aggro striking. Have been waiting for a long time and this has already begun eating away the joy of this game for myself. I'm actually a striker minded manager and I even agree with you. It's not all that hard for a striker to neutralise a grappler. Working on finding a better balance between strikers and grapplers seems far more interesting than messing around with physicals. Very few managers are stoked about the idea of having the physicals' cap implemented. The engine seems pretty damn good to me and doesn't need a huge makeover. Slight twitches are more than sufficient. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLP Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 I've yet to read anyone make a coherent argument on how the physical cap is actually a bad thing. Most are just "I dont like it, its bad" "People will quit because of the change", "fighters will gas too fast" or "UFC fighters are all in real good shape, so elite across the board is realistic." If you stop and do some thinking you would realize how much complexity this would add to the game. When you build your fighters you have to actually consider how to design their physical attributes now. No more just mindlessly training all physicals to elite - or better. Of course there will be some growing pains as we all figure out what works and what doesnt, but thats part of the fun imo. I re-read the first 5-6 pages of the thread and mike had quite a few other really good ideas that I hope he gets to next (clinch td/tdd, third training session). I was also rather alarmed at the number of vet managers who were involved in the discussion less than a year ago who no longer play. Stagnation is the greatest driver of people losing interest in the game. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjornmma1 Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 I've yet to read anyone make a coherent argument on how the physical cap is actually a bad thing. Most are just "I dont like it, its bad" "People will quit because of the change", "fighters will gas too fast" or "UFC fighters are all in real good shape, so elite across the board is realistic." If you stop and do some thinking you would realize how much complexity this would add to the game. When you build your fighters you have to actually consider how to design their physical attributes now. No more just mindlessly training all physicals to elite - or better. Of course there will be some growing pains as we all figure out what works and what doesnt, but thats part of the fun imo. I re-read the first 5-6 pages of the thread and mike had quite a few other really good ideas that I hope he gets to next (clinch td/tdd, third training session). I was also rather alarmed at the number of vet managers who were involved in the discussion less than a year ago who no longer play. Stagnation is the greatest driver of people losing interest in the game. I'll explain in a few bulletpoints why I don't like the physical cap, so you can easily react to it and say on what points you don't agree with me. 1) A lot of veteran managers have been building their new stable and are almost ready to get going again. If the physicals get changed, then most of the builds will hardly make much sense anymore and will take a lot of time to 'fix' by training. 2) It is now already perfectly possible to create a wide variety of fighters. The thing is that most just only build their guys the way they know is the most succesfull at the moment. Making physicals a bigger valuable in the story will not make for more builds after some time, as one ' ultimate' build will be found as well and mass-produced from then on out. 3) There are more urgent and interesting things to tackle; update the ground game (something I am sure you agree with) most of all. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duphus Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 I've yet to read anyone make a coherent argument on how the physical cap is actually a bad thing. Most are just "I dont like it, its bad" "People will quit because of the change", "fighters will gas too fast" or "UFC fighters are all in real good shape, so elite across the board is realistic." If you stop and do some thinking you would realize how much complexity this would add to the game. When you build your fighters you have to actually consider how to design their physical attributes now. No more just mindlessly training all physicals to elite - or better. Of course there will be some growing pains as we all figure out what works and what doesnt, but thats part of the fun imo. I re-read the first 5-6 pages of the thread and mike had quite a few other really good ideas that I hope he gets to next (clinch td/tdd, third training session). I was also rather alarmed at the number of vet managers who were involved in the discussion less than a year ago who no longer play. Stagnation is the greatest driver of people losing interest in the game. OK, I'll take a stab at this: 1. I just don't see this really adding much diversity. There is gonna end up being a best average physical set up, that is going to be best overall or all around, IMO. This is still going to be semi cookie cutter physicals after a short period of time once guys figure out you can't do this or that. Now if you could change them quick enough to actually adjust them fight to fight that might be different, like being able to raise flex when going against a sub guy or something. However I doubt you could change it much with the current training speed we have now in the typical time from when a fight is offered to the time of the fight. 2. Here is the BIGGEST PROBLEM: Lets just say you want 130 cardio and strength and 115 in the rest of the physicals for simplicity and you have them trained to exactly that and are capped in physicals. Now every time you train anything you're going to mess up your physicals and have to "fix them". So I spam train kicks and my flex goes up, so it robs points from cardio and strength and adds to flex. Now I have to train cardio and strength to lower flex and get cardio/strength back down. Depending on how it works, it will likely also mess up my agility, speed, and balance. Your going to have an never ending battle trying to maintain physicals where you want them and waste time training this stuff back to where you want it instead of training other things. This will end up being a huge waste of training time, IMO. This is also going to require individual C/T coaches more then general C/T's so you can keep things where you want them. ^ For those unaware, training any skill also adds point to the related physicals like: Clinch = strength, cardio, balance Defense grap = Flex, cardio ETC I'll explain in a few bulletpoints why I don't like the physical cap, so you can easily react to it and say on what points you don't agree with me. 1) A lot of veteran managers have been building their new stable and are almost ready to get going again. If the physicals get changed, then most of the builds will hardly make much sense anymore and will take a lot of time to 'fix' by training. To be fair: Mike was gonna do allocation on physicals so there won't be time fixing them as you will be able to allocate them down to what you want. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeF Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 Yep, Duphus is right - current training system doesnt give us control over physicals, as I stated earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLP Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 I'll explain in a few bulletpoints why I don't like the physical cap, so you can easily react to it and say on what points you don't agree with me. 1) A lot of veteran managers have been building their new stable and are almost ready to get going again. If the physicals get changed, then most of the builds will hardly make much sense anymore and will take a lot of time to 'fix' by training. 2) It is now already perfectly possible to create a wide variety of fighters. The thing is that most just only build their guys the way they know is the most succesfull at the moment. Making physicals a bigger valuable in the story will not make for more builds after some time, as one ' ultimate' build will be found as well and mass-produced from then on out. 3) There are more urgent and interesting things to tackle; update the ground game (something I am sure you agree with) most of all. Those arguments are precisely what I talked about it earlier. They arent really coherent thoughts. More like a hot take on an subject that you have put little to no thought into. If you are worried that you will be worse at the game after the changes then just say it. I'll respond to them all anyway. 1. Everyone is getting hit the same and you will be able to choose which physicals you lose your points from. 2. No one said it was impossible to create a wide variety of fighters. Its just very hard to compete after your fighter maxes out with anything other then the elite/elite/sen/brown archetype that dominates the top level of the game. Of course there are fighters with great hiddens/managers that buck the trend, but Id roughly estimate about 75% or more of the fighters that reach maturity are built along the elite/elite/sen/brown build. Even if that doesnt change at least we can now add in physicals variety and it will make the game much more interesting. 3. Mike said he was almost done with the physicals cap update, so it will likely not take much time to finish. I don't think the ground game is all that bad and I'd wait to see how the cap effects the engine before I'd advise any changes. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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