Fight Engine Discussion

[shockg]

I can probably come up with an equation change to make e.g. a 10 point skill advantage at a higher level have more of an impact than it does now... But I just feel that would be an inferior solution to having more varied fighters. Wouldn't that just be a more interesting game concept overall? None of us could really say how the current fight engine would perform under this lower skill cap, which is why I haven't really discussed the other ideas.

 

There are several ways we could do it but right now I just wanna see what you guys' general thoughts on that are.

 

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I would also be in favour of adding a 3rd training slot per day and shortening the game year by a couple of weeks. With that, we would have a more dynamic game with more options and it would let us have semi-private gyms, as a solution to the private / public gym issue. I think this all fits well together with a lower overall skill cap.

I fully agree that a 10 point skill advantage at high levels shouldn't have a ton of impact. It would be ridiculously biased towards certain fighters and patient managers.

 

More training sessions and island like regen would make this game amazing and make people want more fighters. I promise. The more fights the better, within reason. We want to train our guys and have some time between fights but I think it is overly slow, especially if you're trying to draw the smartphone crowd.

 

I'm not for shortening fighter's lifespans unless we get faster regen. It takes a long time to train someone to max, I'm only a year into the game and my projects (once I figured out what the hell was going on) are just starting to get nasty. They need another year at min before they can even try to fight the 15/15/15/13 and max physical fighters that dominate lower id brackets.

 

Either way, I'll keep playing and I appreciate your dedication Mike!

[Bwang]

The "clever solution" of lowering the skill cap in the hope of causing a variety of fighter types, I just can't see that being true.

 

At the moment lots of fighters are clones because that is the most efficient way to allocate points and train them up. If there less points to go for, then there will STILL be an optimum build that people will figure out and then always create.

 

At most, lowering the skill cap will cause a period of uncertainty until people work out the new best build, maybe six months of chaos then it'll settle down again. I disagree with the skill cap because I want my fighters to be super humans. Then it would come down to hiddens and sliders, which is how it should be.

 

 

Also, yes to a faster game.

[MMATycoon]

The "clever solution" of lowering the skill cap in the hope of causing a variety of fighter types, I just can't see that being true.

 

At the moment lots of fighters are clones because that is the most efficient way to allocate points and train them up. If there less points to go for, then there will STILL be an optimum build that people will figure out and then always create.

 

 

Not that this is what we'd do but even if you just knocked off 10 points from every fighter skill, it would mean better fights.

 

Taking the example above;

145/130=1.115

 

Knock 10 points off both;

135/120=1.125

 

That's an 8.7% increase in the skill difference. If you look at it on a very basic level, the better fighter would be roughly 10% more likely to land stuff.

 

Of course, people will still want to max out their chosen speciality. If you're saying everyone chooses the same speciality, well they'll end up being weaker in other areas than they would be with a higher skill cap. That should open up options for different fighter builds to take advantage of those weaknesses.

[gwad12345]

 

 

Not that this is what we'd do but even if you just knocked off 10 points from every fighter skill, it would mean better fights.

 

Taking the example above;

145/130=1.115

 

Knock 10 points off both;

135/120=1.125

 

That's an 8.7% increase in the skill difference. If you look at it on a very basic level, the better fighter would be roughly 10% more likely to land stuff.

 

Of course, people will still want to max out their chosen speciality. If you're saying everyone chooses the same speciality, well they'll end up being weaker in other areas than they would be with a higher skill cap. That should open up options for different fighter builds to take advantage of those weaknesses.

 

Lowering the skill cap would give an EVEN GREATER advantage to one dimensional fighters than ever before and I believe 100% that we would see the permanent extinction of the ground game.

 

I could go into a lot of detail into why that is the case but to briefly explain it, it all goes back to grapplers requiring much more skills than strikers.

[Wolf]

- I like the idea of damage/accuracy slider for the ground. Would give people more options there. Would this affect only GnP? Or say, if you set higher damage you will go for higher risk transitions (guard to side control etc). Will flavour text indicate accuracy or damage? Say you go damage, would there be more 'Fighter A postures up and throws a huge elbow that misses' and accuracy 'Fighter A lands a short shot to the ribs of Fighter B'

 

- Not a huge fan of lowering the skill cap, as Gwad said it would lead to more one dimensional builds and probably kill off the ground. I understand your reasoning behind it, but I don't think it will actually play out that way.

 

- I like the idea of 3 training sessions per day, but I don't think it would be wise to add 3 training sessions AND a shorter in game year. One or the other.

[MMATycoon]

how will extra training spot and energy use via training be worked out? will it be less energy used per session -- cause unless change energy use then 3rd session is not as useful -- i mean it can be used but will still require couple rest session so might get extra couple sessions -- might just be easier to do away with sunday being rest and make it training day also -- but also everyone has different thoughts and ways of training i guess -- im for drop in skills cap though

 

Well I can only talk vaguely about it because I'd have to do some proper equations. However, if we've got a lower cap and more sessions then training per session would be slower. Over the course of a week the gains would be pretty similar, then you would probably reach the cap quicker in terms of the fighter's age.

 

The main purpose of the extra slot per day is to give us enough sessions that we could justify partially private gyms. Gyms has always been a bit of a mess and I want to sort it. I don't wanna screw it up so we'll have to have a proper discussion about it, but I want people who now run a private gym to be able to open up let's say 1/3 of their gyms coaching slots to the public. So that would basically be any time their fighters aren't using coaches and are sparring, yoga, cardio etc, they could free up coach slots to the public and still get the premium of having a private gym.

So that's why 6 more sessions is better than just adding Sunday. Also, just on a cosmetic level, adding Sunday would make 7 days and an odd number of columns would look shit on the gym pages. 3 columns (2 days on top of each other) looks fine.

[MMATycoon]

 

Lowering the skill cap would give an EVEN GREATER advantage to one dimensional fighters than ever before and I believe 100% that we would see the permanent extinction of the ground game.

 

I could go into a lot of detail into why that is the case but to briefly explain it, it all goes back to grapplers requiring much more skills than strikers.

 

If you're going to state something as fact then yes, you should go into a lot of detail. Just in general, people stating something as a fact when it's just their opinion is one of my absolute biggest pet hates. And "permanent extinction of the x" is a nonsense statement to make about any part of the game. We can make changes at any point to anything so nothing is ever fixed.

 

In general, the point here is to make things better. There is no reason that ground guys need to have more skills now. If people still feel that's the case, because of too quick standups or whatever, cool, we'll sort that. However, "nah, that doesn't work, don't bother", is not the attitude I want to have and nor should anyone else if we're going to improve the game.

[SonnyMuchacho]

If we drop the skill cap I really think we need to look at the points needed for a successful standup fighter vs a great ground fighter. Standup wins unless there's an adjustment from current format.

 

And who cares about quality ground fighters if when you finally get a takedown the opponents pop back up with superescapes anyway?

[SonnyMuchacho]

 

Well I can only talk vaguely about it because I'd have to do some proper equations. However, if we've got a lower cap and more sessions then training per session would be slower. Over the course of a week the gains would be pretty similar, then you would probably reach the cap quicker in terms of the fighter's age.

 

The main purpose of the extra slot per day is to give us enough sessions that we could justify partially private gyms. Gyms has always been a bit of a mess and I want to sort it. I don't wanna screw it up so we'll have to have a proper discussion about it, but I want people who now run a private gym to be able to open up let's say 1/3 of their gyms coaching slots to the public. So that would basically be any time their fighters aren't using coaches and are sparring, yoga, cardio etc, they could free up coach slots to the public and still get the premium of having a private gym.

So that's why 6 more sessions is better than just adding Sunday. Also, just on a cosmetic level, adding Sunday would make 7 days and an odd number of columns would look shit on the gym pages. 3 columns (2 days on top of each other) looks fine.

This seems like you're way overthinking this problem. Opening up a can of (confusing) worms.

[Marky]

Adding GNP slider sounds good. But before that the instant escapes should be looked at, even if it was just a small tweak and not part of redoing engine. No need for GNP slider if there's no chance to work on the ground.

[Bwang]

I like the idea of being able to rent out spare sessions at my gym, as it would be of no detriment to me and would bring me extra income. That's what every experienced player with a private gym will be thinking - wahey! I don't know if that's good what with getting the rich players richer, but I suppose for the renters it'll mean a chance of some top level training every now and again which they can't afford now. Gyms could set their own prices for a session with their coaches, eg $50. Then there'll be a market of competing semipublic gyms, which could be quite fun.

[MMATycoon]

If we drop the skill cap I really think we need to look at the points needed for a successful standup fighter vs a great ground fighter. Standup wins unless there's an adjustment from current format.

 

And who cares about quality ground fighters if when you finally get a takedown the opponents pop back up with superescapes anyway?

 

 

Do you honestly think I would make real fundamental changes like dropping the skill cap, then just drop the mic and walk off like it's all finished? I said we can't tell how the fight engine would perform under a lower cap but obviously if there were things that needed fixing afterwards, it would get fixed.

 

People want me to make changes to the game then don't listen and wonder why I get frustrated and don't bother having these sort of discussions.

[SonnyMuchacho]

 

 

Do you honestly think I would make real fundamental changes like dropping the skill cap, then just drop the mic and walk off like it's all finished? I said we can't tell how the fight engine would perform under a lower cap but obviously if there were things that needed fixing afterwards, it would get fixed.

 

People want me to make changes to the game then don't listen and wonder why I get frustrated and don't bother having these sort of discussions.

If you get frustrated that easy maybe hire someone who doesn't mind communicating civilly with your customers?

[Guest]

I believe at elite level, for top tier fighters, most builds are at elite. esp in areas as punches, striking def, kicks, clinch and physicals. Ground fighters, with elite takedowns, gnp, and transitions are at deficit compared to those striking elites. I believe the REF STAND ups happen to often and actually doing damage on the ground is more challenging than stand up striking.

 

Adding Dam/Acc slider for GNP is a EXCELLENT idea

Adding Body/Head slider for GNP is another addition

3 sessions per day is good

Speeding up the year, YES YES YES

No skill cap (speeding up the year would be mean fighter will retire quicker and depop faster)

[MMATycoon]

If you get frustrated that easy maybe hire someone who doesn't mind communicating civilly with your customers?

 

Hire someone with what? All the millions of pounds the game makes?

 

Yup, I'm being more snappy than usual. That's because I really don't have as much time as I used to*, to read through and mediate 5 pages of stuff which isn't true and isn't helpful.

*(largely cos of the kid, plus I'm sorting a wedding, plus running the two sites).

 

I want the game to be fundamentally better. I don't see any way in which a lower cap isn't better. More variety is better. Every fighter at the top level being the same is boring.

Sorting that is a fundamental improvement. Ignoring that and doing smaller stuff is just patches. Let's sort the fundamentals, then do the patches on top of what is a much better platform.

 

Anyone who thinks a lower cap makes the game worse, please write up an actual example of why. Thanks.

[itakebrides]

okay i throw in my to cents

 

Lowering the cap WONT fixed the ground game on it own might actually make it worse since you need everything to make a ground guy work.If lowering the skill cap i think would be a good idea but you have to tweek the ground game a bit also otherwise no point.

 

Ground Issues overall

1.Escapes are to powerful

2.If you take a guy down to easy to get a ref stand up.Which is frustrating sine it you have to work hard to get a take-down .

3.Ground guy do not scored for having control on the ground.This make it impossible for then to win decisions. A stand up fighter lands 2 punches but you have him mounted for the entire round he wins the round

 

 

Simple fixes which i believe you be able to be easy enough for you to do

1.turn down escapes a small bit.

2. Turn down ref stand ups a lot .If the top guy is any bit active leave it on the ground.

3.Get points for control on the ground.If your in a dominant position for most of the round i believe it should count in the scoring

[gwad12345]

 

If you're going to state something as fact then yes, you should go into a lot of detail. Just in general, people stating something as a fact when it's just their opinion is one of my absolute biggest pet hates. And "permanent extinction of the x" is a nonsense statement to make about any part of the game. We can make changes at any point to anything so nothing is ever fixed.

 

In general, the point here is to make things better. There is no reason that ground guys need to have more skills now. If people still feel that's the case, because of too quick standups or whatever, cool, we'll sort that. However, "nah, that doesn't work, don't bother", is not the attitude I want to have and nor should anyone else if we're going to improve the game.

 

That's a fair point. Just to clarify, the reason I didn't "go into a lot of detail" was because I was at work, not because I am the type of person who goes around throwing assertions around willy-nilly, I just wanted to get my thoughts down quickly. Also, the "permanent" part might have been hyperbole (something I too dislike), I really just meant that the updates as you suggested would destroy ground fighters. Of course that could be changed with subsequent updates.

 

My explanation of why I think lowering the skill cap will primarily hurt ground fighters rests largely on what you said in an earlier post about how the skill difference effects the overall outcome of an attempted move (the offensive skills/defensive thing).

 

On Necessary Skills:

Standup fighters, in my opinion, right now, only need (and when I say need I mean need): punches, kicks, str def, clinchwork, takedown def and defensive grappling

Grapplers need: punches, kicks, str def, clinchwork, takedowns, defensive grappling AND transitions, gnp and/or subs (having both makes each significantly more effective) and, unless they are pure, pure ground fighters (like high black belts or red belts, the kind of fighters who shoot in for a takedown +20% of the time) they also need at least some takedown defense.

So lets say the number of necessary secondaries is 6 for strikers and 8.5 (a conservative estimate) for grapplers. That is a pretty significant difference.

 

Right now, I believe, if you budget the skill points well enough, a grappler should be able to get all the points it needs to compete in the standup on relatively equal terms with a pure striker. That is, the main restraint is learning speed, not skill cap. The fact that this is the case and yet grapplers are still dominated in the meta raises other questions, but anyway, back on topic.

 

Let's say the skill cap is lowered to the point where (after calculating physicals and primaries) a fighter can afford to train 5 skills to elite. Lets say for the sake of argument that we just take all the so-called necessary skills and distribute the available skill points equally. A standup fighter would end up with around (13) exceptional skills in all of the skills I listed while a grappler would end up with around (10) superb (note that I didnt do the math, just ballparking it). When a standup fighter attempts a punch (or any sort of offensive standup move), the skill difference is 120/90, much improved from what it would be now at the top levels. Defensively, he also does much better of course as the skill difference would again be in his favor: 90/120.

 

What about the grapplers ability to do damage on the ground?

 

First of all, now the grapplers ability to GET the fight to the ground is handicapped, as the skill difference of his takedowns to the strikers takedown defense would be 90/120. Moreover, his ability to successfully operate on the ground would also be negatively impacted, as his ability to either inflict a sub or successfully strike is hampered, to the degree of 90/120.

 

Again, to reiterate 120/90 is what I would call a large skill difference and it would have a big impact. Any attempt on the grapplers part to strengthen in one area leaves him even more vulnerable in another area.

 

There are ways to help soften the effects. This explanation also rests on what I believe are necessary skills. Right now I dont believe for instance that transitions are absolutely necessary for strikers while they are for grapplers and I still dont feel like escapes are completely necessary for strikers. If they, or other skills changed to become necessary, than all the "calculations" I did would have to be revised.

 

Sorry for all the grammar mistakes/typos I undoubtedly made, I too do not have unlimited free time and I did not proof-read this.

[MMATycoon]

Thanks for the reply. I'm just heading out the door for the evening but will check it out later tonight.

[shortfuse122829]

I'm completely baffled by the direction of this thread

[Bwang]

Well said GWad.

[MMATycoon]

gwad - I read through your post. I don't understand why someone making a ground guy would decide 90/150 is where they need to settle on takedowns, whereas 120/150 is where any striker would obviously settle for takedown defense. Yet, any grappler would settle for 90 striking defense, where any offensive striker can go 120. People don't distribute all their skills equally.

 

Under a lower cap, it would seem sensible to me to go absolute max on takedowns if you want to get the fight to the mat. Right now it's not that big of a deal for a striker to assign 150ish to takedown defense. With a lower cap it's a much more nuanced decision..... As is everything to be honest and that's the point. There's not really any thought process / decision making now - you just max everything out and I think that's boring.

 

re shortfuse's point, I appreciate this seems to have come out of left field... I just thread through the thread and everyone's suggestions and just thought "this is all just a bit meh... I wish we'd just sort things out properly."

 

Genuinely, if people don't want a lower cap, that's fine... I'll just do the simple patches and we'll continue on with the status quo. I just think anyone who votes for that is voting for a worse game and is just doing so because they don't want to deal with change.

[JLP]

re shortfuse's point, I appreciate this seems to have come out of left field... I just thread through the thread and everyone's suggestions and just thought "this is all just a bit meh... I wish we'd just sort things out properly."

 

Genuinely, if people don't want a lower cap, that's fine... I'll just do the simple patches and we'll continue on with the status quo. I just think anyone who votes for that is voting for a worse game and is just doing so because they don't want to deal with change.

I'm all for the lower cap, I think its long overdue. I'd also like to see the physicals separated as well.

I'm with mike in the sense that I think lowering the cap will balance the game out a bit as long as slight tweaks are made to the engine to correspond (escapes and ref standups dialed back, gnp acc/dmg slider implemented).

 

At the very worst, it will be much better then the elite/elite/sen/brown cookie cutter build dominant game that we have now. Just seeing the wider variety of builds will make it far more interesting.

[UniConor]

I would like to consider Kronix's idea for the skill cap which he mentions here - I know his original point is a little bit invalid about peripheral learning, but I wholeheartedly agree with him on the point of: elite fighters know how to do EVERYTHING even to a certain extent, I'm sure Conor McGregor could submit somebody. So having the skill cap only be affected by skills over the number of 50 and then lowering the skill cap, I think is what this game needs. In my opinion. This way I feel like we get the most close to life and competitive game.

I'm also for separate physical and secondary skill cap.

[YerMaw]

I would like to consider Kronix's idea for the skill cap which he mentions here - I know his original point is a little bit invalid about peripheral learning, but I wholeheartedly agree with him on the point of: elite fighters know how to do EVERYTHING even to a certain extent, I'm sure Conor McGregor could submit somebody. So having the skill cap only be affected by skills over the number of 50 and then lowering the skill cap, I think is what this game needs. In my opinion. This way I feel like we get the most close to life and competitive game.

I'm also for separate physical and secondary skill cap.

I agree with this - the current system encourages you to train secondary skills up to elite or not at all: when it comes to GnP in particular I think that's pretty unrealistic (i.e. all fighters should have basic GnP abilities - enabling fighters to have at least mediocre GnP without worrying about it limiting them elsewhere IMO leads to a more realistic game). Also it would help to solve some of the issues that currently exist in regards to peripheral training benefits (e.g. training clinch increasing knees/elbows)

[shortfuse122829]

Dude I'm here no matter what you decide bc I've been able to adjust to every single fight engine just fine. But yes your idea came out of left field.

I still am for escapes being under finish either way though. JLP has posted fights before where guys went 100 counter 100 control and still got 3 or 4 escapes & that just shouldn't be possible. Counter/Control causing ref stand ups is already a bitch to crack, being able to escape so easily in addition to counter control is really almost unbeatable. I'm sure on occasion RNG works to the grapplers favor but it just seems very infrequent from what I've seen