Fight Engine Discussion

[Rain]

I also believe that we should add these skills to the clinch - Clinch Takedowns, or just call them Throws/Trips to look nicer But about the second takedown defense thing... IDK, it has it's own advantages but I believe that it's better to make another skill called Clinch Transitions and add transitions in the clinch, like on the ground.

Let's say I'll give an evaluation of every position and what you could do in it.

 

Thai clinch - 5/5 for throwing knees and a 3/5 for trips.

Over Under - 3/5 for knees, 4/5 for trips and throws.

Double Underhook - 1/5 for knees, 5/5 for trips and throws.

Back - 1/5 for knees, 5/5 for trips and throws.

 

I also believe that throws from Over Under, Double Underhook and Back should have some power in them - with these it should be easier to get Slam KO's and, it could be made so that high amplitude throws and slams take away some energy from the victim because of the "crssh landing" for example It could be measured by the level of Trips/Throws, for example, a guy with Sensational Trips/Throws should have a reasonably high, let's say 10% chance to at least get another fighter rocked with a slam if the other guy has lets say Abysmal Takedown defense. And, if the difference between skills is so big, it should also take away quite a lot of stamina from the victim, based on the attackers strenght, balance, and trips and throws skill.

 

Just food for thought

[MMATycoon]

 

Obviously posting that looks a bit flippant but the point stands, re just adding another 5 skills. There's no need to add an 11, just make 10 louder. Or in our case, we put in a cap for physicals and make 10 mean more.

 

[poraan]

GNP damage slider, diff physical cap. I think those would have quite small effect.

Clinch takedowns and takedef would have a lot effect. Every fighter should train clinch takedef, so it would hurt a lot fighters that have many skills.

 

Ground fighters are already really lucky depent. Get takedown to side at first minute and you have so much advantage in that fight. People always talk how referees standup too early, but somehow they forgot to talk those 5 minute layandprays.

 

Taisto Perälä is "grappler" and hes also best striker at 170.

Pulkkinen is 150cm "grappler" and he outstrikes 90% of fighters. If you guys want to boost "grapplers" it means fighters like these will be better also.

Striker may beat grappler, but with current skill cap you can be both.

 

 

Basically i think that escapes should be less effective, especially instant escapes. Also grapplers should have some way to get up from ground at grappler vs grappler fights.

 

Experience has some smalll effect, but i think it should have more effect than currently. Especially fighters that have like +40 fights.

[MMATycoon]

I also believe that we should add these skills to the clinch - Clinch Takedowns, or just call them Throws/Trips to look nicer But about the second takedown defense thing... IDK, it has it's own advantages but I believe that it's better to make another skill called Clinch Transitions and add transitions in the clinch, like on the ground.

Let's say I'll give an evaluation of every position and what you could do in it.

 

Thai clinch - 5/5 for throwing knees and a 3/5 for trips.

Over Under - 3/5 for knees, 4/5 for trips and throws.

Double Underhook - 1/5 for knees, 5/5 for trips and throws.

Back - 1/5 for knees, 5/5 for trips and throws.

 

I also believe that throws from Over Under, Double Underhook and Back should have some power in them - with these it should be easier to get Slam KO's and, it could be made so that high amplitude throws and slams take away some energy from the victim because of the "crssh landing" for example It could be measured by the level of Trips/Throws, for example, a guy with Sensational Trips/Throws should have a reasonably high, let's say 10% chance to at least get another fighter rocked with a slam if the other guy has lets say Abysmal Takedown defense. And, if the difference between skills is so big, it should also take away quite a lot of stamina from the victim, based on the attackers strenght, balance, and trips and throws skill.

 

Just food for thought

 

UniConor (I think), brought up clinch positions. I think maybe that could be a long term job but it would be a massive job. Lots of programming for the fight engine and also writing probably 1000 new lines of commentary for all the different positions. I had to have a triple chocolate chip cookie just to calm myself down after thinking about it

[UniConor]

UniConor (I think), brought up clinch positions. I think maybe that could be a long term job but it would be a massive job. Lots of programming for the fight engine and also writing probably 1000 new lines of commentary for all the different positions. I had to have a triple chocolate chip cookie just to calm myself down after thinking about it

I will help you write commentary for it

[Rambo]

because?

 

because we have a skill called takedowns. also skill called takedown defense. we have a skill called clinchwork. apply them to effectiveness of takedowns and defense in the clinch and you don't have to chance a whole lot and keep it simple. it seems really unnecessary to add clinch takedowns and td def. might as well add "clinch punch technique" too and clinch striking defense.

 

and training speed is ridiculously slow - especially for slower learners. hell a lot of people think training speed is too slow even for the fastest learner. don't need more skills to keep more projects on the shelf.

[GBK16]

Not a fan of adding Clinch Takedown Defense and Takedowns personally. It still doesn't solve the issues of the ground game being highly ineffective as a whole. Really you need to be looking at the engine because as it stands, even when grapplers get it to the floor, it's hard to keep it there and to effectively deal damage.

 

Realistically, it won't make much difference anyway because grapplers will still need to have both Clinch Takedowns and Standing Takedowns because if they only have one, and their opponent has the right defence, they will still be fucked, and this just means both styles will need one more skill to train up. Just my thoughts on that topic.

 

I am intrigued by the Clinch Position idea, but I don't think you should take away the effectiveness of striking that much from the clinch. It might make it more realistic, but the current style of clinch has been a Tycoon staple for a long time and it will take away from the game I feel.

[MMATycoon]

Realistically, it won't make much difference anyway because grapplers will still need to have both Clinch Takedowns and Standing Takedowns because if they only have one, and their opponent has the right defence, they will still be fucked, and this just means both styles will need one more skill to train up. Just my thoughts on that topic.

 

That makes no sense. Right now a striker needs to have one takedown defense. High as possible, boom, forget about it.

 

Let's say you have a ground guy under a split takedown skills secenario and you choose to be a shoot takedown guy. The worst case scenario is that it's exactly like it is now... The striker has top level takedown defense for your particularly takedown speciality so you're no worse off than you were before. Best case scenario, he's not got great shoot takedown defense because he's used some of those points on clinch takedowns.

[YerMaw]

I really don't think adding more secondaries is going to help ground builds... it's the exact same problem as it is now: a grappler will want both TDs and TDD whereas a striker only needs TDD.

 

Fortunately I think the recent change to counter TDs from kicks should help out the ground builds, but adding two new takedown secondaries for the clinch seems really counter intuitive to me - everyone is going to want both TDDs but then the grappler is left with the choice of either taking shoot TDs/clinch TDs and lacking the proficiency in the other area (thus being more predictable) or taking both and again being left with the problem of a shortage of points to put elsewhere.

 

The suggested engine changes to the ground game sound good, but adding two new secondaries is just going to create more issues for grappling builds imo.

[edwardsfan]

Speed up the training or lower the overall skill cap. Both scenarios provide a similar result.

 

You ever ask yourself why this game exploded with managers in the beginning and then died? Because in the beginning all our fighters sucked and you could afford to sack a fighter and build another and he wasn't that far behind. Hell, you create a fighter now, you got at minimum a full 4-5 months of straight training before you can even think of fighting. How does the game be allowed to go on that way? Is that even a game?

 

#trainingtycoon

[PBR]

Speed up the training or lower the overall skill cap. Both scenarios provide a similar result.

 

You ever ask yourself why this game exploded with managers in the beginning and then died? Because in the beginning all our fighters sucked and you could afford to sack a fighter and build another and he wasn't that far behind. Hell, you create a fighter now, you got at minimum a full 4-5 months of straight training before you can even think of fighting. How does the game be allowed to go on that way? Is that even a game?

 

#trainingtycoon

 

i rather see skill cap dropped just to make advantages / disadvantages between fighters -- but on trainingtycoon i dont totally agree on that part cause many id orgs going on and you see plenty of Comp-Wonderful-Respectable-Blue belt type fighters -- thats where the main fun to me comes from a comp-wonderful-respectable-blue vs respectable-comp-wonderful-purple type of fight which you can get plenty of in id orgs

[edwardsfan]

i rather see skill cap dropped just to make advantages / disadvantages between fighters -- but on trainingtycoon i dont totally agree on that part cause many id orgs going on and you see plenty of Comp-Wonderful-Respectable-Blue belt type fighters -- thats where the main fun to me comes from a comp-wonderful-respectable-blue vs respectable-comp-wonderful-purple type of fight which you can get plenty of in id orgs

At the top of every restricted org is a project fighter...just wrecking the piss out of fighters you mentioned PBR.

 

I agree though. It would be fun to create a fighter and start fighting right away. That's the way the game was initially. But it's grown out of that. I would go back to that in a heartbeat though

[edwardsfan]

i rather see skill cap dropped just to make advantages / disadvantages between fighters -- but on trainingtycoon i dont totally agree on that part cause many id orgs going on and you see plenty of Comp-Wonderful-Respectable-Blue belt type fighters -- thats where the main fun to me comes from a comp-wonderful-respectable-blue vs respectable-comp-wonderful-purple type of fight which you can get plenty of in id orgs

As far as ID restricted orgs. That's a crutch implemented by the players themselves to cover up a flaw in the game.

[Rambo]

At the top of every restricted org is a project fighter...just wrecking the piss out of fighters you mentioned PBR.

 

I agree though. It would be fun to create a fighter and start fighting right away. That's the way the game was initially. But it's grown out of that. I would go back to that in a heartbeat though

Exactly what happens. It's a race as soon as 290, or 300 comes around, people create, test, and test learning speed. It's so desperate that people literally fight themselves with 2 potential projects to test learning speed, hiddens, and confidence.

 

As far as ID restricted orgs. That's a crutch implemented by the players themselves to cover up a flaw in the game.

100% correct.

 

Speed up the training or lower the overall skill cap. Both scenarios provide a similar result.

 

You ever ask yourself why this game exploded with managers in the beginning and then died? Because in the beginning all our fighters sucked and you could afford to sack a fighter and build another and he wasn't that far behind. Hell, you create a fighter now, you got at minimum a full 4-5 months of straight training before you can even think of fighting. How does the game be allowed to go on that way? Is that even a game?

 

#trainingtycoon

#trainingtycoon

#flyingfightertycoon

 

the fighter rollover is too slow. the training is too slow. this is the slowest game of all time. it has a lot more potential.

[bjornmma1]

Exactly what happens. It's a race as soon as 290, or 300 comes around, people create, test, and test learning speed. It's so desperate that people literally fight themselves with 2 potential projects to test learning speed, hiddens, and confidence.

 

100% correct.

 

#trainingtycoon

#flyingfightertycoon

 

the fighter rollover is too slow. the training is too slow. this is the slowest game of all time. it has a lot more potential.

 

Exactly. I have mentioned it a long time ago, that the speed of learning skills should be a lot faster. It takes too much time to rebuild a new roster for veteran managers, so they lose their patience.

[edwardsfan]

I think the total skill points should hang out around an average of strong/superb. Make higher skills in an area an actual advantage.

 

The issue we face now is all fighters have the same skill sets and ironically it actually devalues skills. While it puts overwhelming importance on hiddens. Hiddens really become the only deciding factor in a fighters success when all else is equal. That sucks because since it takes so long to build a fighter you really don't want to have to scrap a guy.

 

Fighter rollover is the biggest issue facing this game in my opinion.

 

It takes too long to train a fighter up and too long to retire a fighter out.

[MMATycoon]

In terms of adding skills, I'm actually fine with the "I can't be bothered having to deal with more skills" argument for split takedowns and think it's perfectly valid. We can certainly put that on the back burner and I've come up with a decent idea for the skill cap anyway, without having to add more skills.

 

After looking at a load of the top guys, they tend to have around 87-90% skills in primaries and only about 60-65% skills for secondaries. That's totally understandable but as we know, not really realistic.

We're adding in a separate cap for the physicals, so that leaves one cap for combined primaries and secondaries and actually puts all fighters well under the existing skill caps again, because physical skills were always so high. i.e. someone who was at their 78% skill cap, without physicals is going to be about 72%.

 

So what we're going to do is have that one combined cap and leave it at the current level of 78%ish but primaries are going to count for more than secondaries. So 1 point on a primary is going to count for around 1.375 points, which puts everyone I've checked back to roughly the same point.

 

I think this will be a pretty interesting way of doing things. You can have more skills if you want to put them into secondaries, or if you wanna pack out primaries, that's cool too... you just dont get as many points overall.

 

We can try and sneak that figure up a bit over time, to make primaries more like 1.5x the "cost" of secondaries, which I think would be more accurate, but the 1.375 just fits the current builds best.

[madbob]

Well of to the calculator then, to figure out what build are possible for the new created fighters

[edwardsfan]

In terms of adding skills, I'm actually fine with the "I can't be bothered having to deal with more skills" argument for split takedowns and think it's perfectly valid. We can certainly put that on the back burner and I've come up with a decent idea for the skill cap anyway, without having to add more skills.

 

After looking at a load of the top guys, they tend to have around 87-90% skills in primaries and only about 60-65% skills for secondaries. That's totally understandable but as we know, not really realistic.

We're adding in a separate cap for the physicals, so that leaves one cap for combined primaries and secondaries and actually puts all fighters well under the existing skill caps again, because physical skills were always so high. i.e. someone who was at their 78% skill cap, without physicals is going to be about 72%.

 

So what we're going to do is have that one combined cap and leave it at the current level of 78%ish but primaries are going to count for more than secondaries. So 1 point on a primary is going to count for around 1.375 points, which puts everyone I've checked back to roughly the same point.

 

I think this will be a pretty interesting way of doing things. You can have more skills if you want to put them into secondaries, or if you wanna pack out primaries, that's cool too... you just dont get as many points overall.

 

We can try and sneak that figure up a bit over time, to make primaries more like 1.5x the "cost" of secondaries, which I think would be more accurate, but the 1.375 just fits the current builds best.

^^^ interesting. But still does very little in getting a fighter from nothing to something any quicker? Unless you don't think that is an issue. In that case I say you are dead wrong

[PBR]

i still think the argument for the pace of the game is 50/50 really -- some like the pace and start fighting soon in id orgs -- well edfan say they are a patch for broke name i dont think it is really -- yea you usually see a beast at the top but thats when you either raise the id limit and let them go or something else -- but that id fighter isnt a beast cause of the training speed its cause of probably private gym (which i think another tighting of learning gap should happen) -- your forgetting your choosing to project that fighter out forever, not the game -- let me ask how long do you think a fighter should exist (real live time) -- i think cap is a big issue also, i would like to see a big drop in it myself or extra skills added and bring it down that way -- like rambo mentioned no to clinch takedowns vs stand up takedowns but that is viable in fighting -- like randy he was better from clinch, ronda also along with many

[KingEpicity]

Exactly what happens. It's a race as soon as 290, or 300 comes around, people create, test, and test learning speed. It's so desperate that people literally fight themselves with 2 potential projects to test learning speed, hiddens, and confidence.

 

100% correct.

 

#trainingtycoon

#flyingfightertycoon

 

the fighter rollover is too slow. the training is too slow. this is the slowest game of all time. it has a lot more potential.

 

Desperate?

 

I would call it smart. It's the best possible way to test two fighters(if they are identical) and all it takes is a loss on your record. Better than QFCing a loss and only getting about half of the information for each fighter. I don't see anything wrong with it. Also there is nothing wrong with creating a fighter at 280, 290 etc etc. Once again it's about being smart and not falling behind on training when you go into an org at that ID range. Down the line hiddens and sliders are what's going to matter but early on(if you are fighting at ages 18-20 for instance) fighting a guy with more training is a huge disadvantage.

 

Any newbies reading... Don't let this guy dissuade you from making sound decisions on the pretext of desperation.

 

It's just the difference between wanting a guy to compete early on his career and possibly be a champion in an ID org or a long term project who is only going to fight a few times in his early years.

 

 

 

 

The fighter rollover is too slow and the training is as well though.

[edwardsfan]

The game play dictates how the game is played.

 

I believe 25 - 30 months is plenty long enough for someone to enjoy a fighter.

 

I am in agreement as well. The skill cap needs to come down by a decent amount. But you have to consider the fact that if fighters hit a training wall sooner then they lose the excitement of training. And honestly becoming boring outside of the one time per month that they fight.

 

That is why i have suggested a short term training system that provides hidden gains to fighter skills.

[762x39]

By splitting the skills and making primary skills worth more points then secondary all that is going to do is make everyone have 4 exceptional skills in primary and then all elite secondary skills to go with them. Still not going to add anything. Everyone is still going to have the same basic builds they are just going to be a different build then they are now. I am still not sold on it.

[Bwang]

That's what I keep thinking, there will still be an optimum build, it will just take time for people to figure out what it is.

 

Skill caps, new skills, whatever - there will still be an optimum build.

 

Then it will come down to hiddens sliders and luck as usual.

 

And I don't know why people are so upset about seeing fighters with quad elite primaries - it's just the language of the game. So what if it's not identical to real life? These many things in this game that aren't realistic. (My vote would be for more skill points. I want my fighters elite in every single thing if I've been assed to train it for year after real life year.)

[Wolf]

Yea, quad elite's may not be identical to real life, but i'd rather it be that way than just exploiting a weakness you have nothing to do. It would lead to more people declining fights imo. As it is, fights rest on hiddens, but mainly sliders. Sliders are the true way to manager skill and that's the way it should be. Im saying this poorly, but what I mean is i would rather lose because I was outslidered than because my opponent had a higher primary than me