Fight Engine Discussion

[PBR]

im like shortfuse im here via changes no changes or what ever decide either i will adapt or not --- i do like the acc/damage slider for gnp also -- you could take it a step further and maybe have elbows (via standup skill or new skill) be taken into consideration for gnp shots and add that slider

[gwad12345]

gwad - I read through your post. I don't understand why someone making a ground guy would decide 90/150 is where they need to settle on takedowns, whereas 120/150 is where any striker would obviously settle for takedown defense. Yet, any grappler would settle for 90 striking defense, where any offensive striker can go 120. People don't distribute all their skills equally.

 

Under a lower cap, it would seem sensible to me to go absolute max on takedowns if you want to get the fight to the mat. Right now it's not that big of a deal for a striker to assign 150ish to takedown defense. With a lower cap it's a much more nuanced decision..... As is everything to be honest and that's the point. There's not really any thought process / decision making now - you just max everything out and I think that's boring.

 

The point is that if they choose to compensate with more points in the takedowns department they will be even more vulnerable in other. And as I demonstrated before, even if they spread out all their points in all skills that I believe are necessary, so as to make it as even as possible in all areas with strikers, they are already at a significant advantage.

 

Saying "they should just put more in takedowns" ignores the fact that they need to budget their points much, much more carefully than strikers if the skill cap is reduced.

 

Genuinely, if people don't want a lower cap, that's fine... I'll just do the simple patches and we'll continue on with the status quo. I just think anyone who votes for that is voting for a worse game and is just doing so because they don't want to deal with change.

 

You can have your opinion and I can have mine but I am a little concerned that you are being overly dismissive of my and other peoples' concerns. I still believe what you proposed will destroy grapplers and I haven't heard anything remotely address that point.

[Guest]

Maybe I'm wrong bit if you dumb it down a bit more, it seems like strikers need less points to make an elite striker with elite ground defence. You simply don't have enough points to make an elite ground fighter with elite standup skills/defence so you either go for an elite ground fighter and get owned in the stand up or make mediocre ground fighter with elite stand up skills and struggle get the fight to the ground or do anything if you are lucky enough to get the fight to the mat. Moving any points away from stand up skills to improve ground skills or takedowns is a suicide mission as you'll be wide open in the stand up.

I can't see how lowering the total number of points allocated is going to change anything unless the ground and stand up skills required are balanced. You're still going to need more skill points than the striker but both would have less to do it with.

 

I am all for changing the game so we don't just see the cookie cutter builds dominate, it would be great to see different styles of fighter do well at the top but I think balancing would need to take place first.

[MMATycoon]

It will be easy enough to test these things.

 

Yep, a ground guy under a lower cap will be more at risk on the feet but once he gets it to the ground, there will be more of a discrepancy than there is now. If standup guys start getting dominated on the ground they'll feel they have to allocate points to transitions if just controlling doesn't work (which hopefully will be sorted by the GNP damage / accuracy slider).

 

If people want to do a build & sliders for a striker vs grappler at different caps, I can test that not easily (100 runs and see who wins how many).

[Guest]

It will be easy enough to test these things.

 

Yep, a ground guy under a lower cap will be more at risk on the feet but once he gets it to the ground, there will be more of a discrepancy than there is now. If standup guys start getting dominated on the ground they'll feel they have to allocate points to transitions if just controlling doesn't work (which hopefully will be sorted by the GNP damage / accuracy slider).

 

If people want to do a build & sliders for a striker vs grappler at different caps, I can test that not easily (100 runs and see who wins how many).

 

i want to take part in this test

[762x39]

I like most of the ideas that have been mentioned, except the lower skill cap. I am like the others I will stay and try and figure it out, I just hope takedowns get a lot easier, and escapes and standups a lot harder. If not I agree it will kill the ground game.

[Guest]

It will be easy enough to test these things.

 

Yep, a ground guy under a lower cap will be more at risk on the feet but once he gets it to the ground, there will be more of a discrepancy than there is now. If standup guys start getting dominated on the ground they'll feel they have to allocate points to transitions if just controlling doesn't work (which hopefully will be sorted by the GNP damage / accuracy slider).

 

If people want to do a build & sliders for a striker vs grappler at different caps, I can test that not easily (100 runs and see who wins how many).

 

I volunteer.

[Arcalimon]

There is a reason why I try to stay away from the top level of the game: all the fighters look the same, it's boring and unrealistic. Maybe the only fighters in UFC who are similar to the top level beasts of mmatycoon are GSP, Jones and Demetrious Johnson. No other fighter can be described as elite-elite-sensational-black or something along those lines. Let's pick McGregor: he probably is elite-exceptional-remarkable-purple. Anderson Silva in his prime is probably sensational-elite-proficient-brown, Werdum the HW champ remarkable-exceptional-proficient-black and so on.

 

We're talking about balancing the game and reducing the skill cap - let Mike work on it, he didn't say he's going to just reduce the skill cap, he say he's doing both things.

[GBK16]

There is a reason why I try to stay away from the top level of the game: all the fighters look the same, it's boring and unrealistic.

No offense, but you haven't even had a single fight at the top level of the game so you wouldn't know at all how it goes. You've had success in the lower ID orgs / Highland Games, so no shit it's gonna be a lot more appealing to you, but you can't really make any comments on an area of the game you literally have 0 experience with.

 

As for the Skill Cap dropping, I fully agree with G Wad in that it will only make Strikers more prevalent over the Grapplers since Grapplers still need more skills in order to compete and dropping the skill cap means grapplers will have to spread their points over the remaining skills or else become irrelevant.

 

The way I see it, the only change that needs to be done right now is a look at the actual Engine. Like Shortfuse said before, it's a bitch for grapplers to deal with when their opponent can go Counter/Control while STILL attempting Escapes. This means Grapplers have to deal with 1. Getting the Takedowns , 2. Their opponent not immediately bouncing back up from an Escape 3. Their opponent going Counter/Control to force a Ref Standup 4. Their opponent still having a chance of Escaping from the bottom while not doing anything. This is a big issue for grapplers, and shit I have a roster mainly built on strikers due to the fact they are a lot more dominant in the game. Grapplers can do well in the lower weight classes, but you will put the favourite still as the guy who can strike while also being safe defensively on the ground. The only time a grappler really could be the favourite is at the early ID levels when skills aren't nearly as developed.

[shortfuse122829]

It will be easy enough to test these things.

 

Yep, a ground guy under a lower cap will be more at risk on the feet but once he gets it to the ground, there will be more of a discrepancy than there is now. If standup guys start getting dominated on the ground they'll feel they have to allocate points to transitions if just controlling doesn't work (which hopefully will be sorted by the GNP damage / accuracy slider).

 

If people want to do a build & sliders for a striker vs grappler at different caps, I can test that not easily (100 runs and see who wins how many).

 

I'd be game to test if you want

[Arcalimon]

No offense, but you haven't even had a single fight at the top level of the game so you wouldn't know at all how it goes.

 

I'm not saying I know how it goes; I dont' think I wrote anything about it in fact. What I'm saying is that if you look at the roster of the top orgs you'll see the same fighters over and over as far as primaries (elite-elite-sensational-brown, you know the drill) and strategy goes. I hope you read the rest of my post aswell.

 

Let's take a look at the top 10 P4P in UFC and what I think their primaries are more or less, IMO. Maybe they are not the most accurate, but sure as hell no one in this list can be described as a double or triple elite.

 

1. Jon Jones (exceptional, sensational, elite, brown)

2. Demetrious Johnson (sensational, sensational, sensational, brown)

3. Luck Rockhold (wonferful, elite, remarkable, black)

4. Werdum (remarkable-exceptional-proficient-black)

5. Dominic Cruz (sensational, wonderful, sensational, brown)

6. Dos Anjos (wonderful, exceptional, wonderful, black)

7. Lawler (exceptional, wonderful, wonderful, purple)

8. McGregor (elite, exceptional, remarkable, purple)

9. Cormier (wonderfucl, proficient, elite, brown)

10. Aldo (remarkable, elite, remarkable, brown)

 

Now look at the primaries of the fighters in the mmatycoon P4P list. Are you telling me that they are realistic? really?

[shortfuse122829]

 

If you're going to state something as fact then yes, you should go into a lot of detail. Just in general, people stating something as a fact when it's just their opinion is one of my absolute biggest pet hates. And "permanent extinction of the x" is a nonsense statement to make about any part of the game. We can make changes at any point to anything so nothing is ever fixed.

 

In general, the point here is to make things better. There is no reason that ground guys need to have more skills now. If people still feel that's the case, because of too quick standups or whatever, cool, we'll sort that. However, "nah, that doesn't work, don't bother", is not the attitude I want to have and nor should anyone else if we're going to improve the game.

 

 

Not to be a jerk here dude but it seems like some people in this game have a better understanding of the engine then you do. When the last set of changes was implemented I specifically asked you about moving 'escapes' under finish/control in the heirarchy. I didn't understand why you were saying escapes working now was going to increase the activity on the ground game w/o it being under finish/control and even specifically asked about counter/control + escapes being over-powered w/ how it was set up.

 

http://www.mmatycoon.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=50571&p=689784 - here is the post

 

"Can you explain how going higher stand and escape is going to help the ground activity? What's to stop guys from still going counter/control and then just setting their sliders to 80 stand and escape? Wouldn't that still lead to low activity on the ground??"

 

And in your response you basically told me that it wouldn't really be possible to go high control and still have escapes work effectively.

 

http://www.mmatycoon.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=50571&p=689818 - your reply

 

"Before you if you go high control the aim is to get a standup. That would work. Going high control and escape isn't really going to get you many escapes cos you're not really trying to escape very often."

 

 

 

Yet I've seen guys post fights where the opponent appears to be on 100 counter/control and still got 4 escapes in the fight. The reason I say appears is because they do 0 subs, 0 sweep attempts, never try to improve their position. All of their ground stats are 0 but yet they still have 4 escapes. So not only is it possible to do that but it appears to be a pretty crippling strategy for the ground guys. I don't remember where these examples were posted so I'm going to lean on some of the guys who've posted examples before (Think JLP was one) to post some examples of this in action.

[shortfuse122829]

Anyway, I brought up a valid concern which was dismissed because you thought that your opinion was fact. When it appears as if you were incorrect on your assumption

[762x39]

I agree with GBK and the others.

 

If you are wanting to make a big change I would rather leave the skill cap alone, make the small adjustments that have been mentioned. Then work on the PA's as corner men to adjust fight tactics between rounds. This as mentioned when PA's first came out and nothing ever came from it. Or change it so we can set different tactics between rounds. I think either or those would be much better adds then the lower skill cap.

[GBK16]

 

I'm not saying I know how it goes; I dont' think I wrote anything about it in fact. What I'm saying is that if you look at the roster of the top orgs you'll see the same fighters over and over as far as primaries (elite-elite-sensational-brown, you know the drill) and strategy goes. I hope you read the rest of my post aswell.

 

Let's take a look at the top 10 P4P in UFC and what I think their primaries are more or less, IMO. Maybe they are not the most accurate, but sure as hell no one in this list can be described as a double or triple elite.

 

1. Jon Jones (exceptional, sensational, elite, brown)

2. Demetrious Johnson (sensational, sensational, sensational, brown)

3. Luck Rockhold (wonferful, elite, remarkable, black)

4. Werdum (remarkable-exceptional-proficient-black)

5. Dominic Cruz (sensational, wonderful, sensational, brown)

6. Dos Anjos (wonderful, exceptional, wonderful, black)

7. Lawler (exceptional, wonderful, wonderful, purple)

8. McGregor (elite, exceptional, remarkable, purple)

9. Cormier (wonderfucl, proficient, elite, brown)

10. Aldo (remarkable, elite, remarkable, brown)

 

Now look at the primaries of the fighters in the mmatycoon P4P list. Are you telling me that they are realistic? really?

This game isn't about being realistic, it's about being balanced to create an enjoyable experience for the players. You want those kind of stats, you should have played for the first couple of years. It's a natural evolution. You are basically trying to give an opinion on how the higher end of the game should be by saying the cap should be lowered, while having no experience of actually having a fighter at the cap or having any experience with those fighters which basically means you are throwing a blind dart by simply branding it "boring and unrealistic". You can't really call something boring when you have no experience with it, while you want a game about player experience to be "realistic". There are a lot of things in this game that aren't realistic, but they add an element of enjoyment to the players.

 

 

I agree with GBK and the others.

 

If you are wanting to make a big change I would rather leave the skill cap alone, make the small adjustments that have been mentioned. Then work on the PA's as corner men to adjust fight tactics between rounds. This as mentioned when PA's first came out and nothing ever came from it. Or change it so we can set different tactics between rounds. I think either or those would be much better adds then the lower skill cap.

I think the Corner Man idea came up back in 2011 first and it was pretty much unanimous in being for it, so I would definitely be in favour of implementing it if it means adding something new and enjoyable to the game.

[Mooncutter]

Taking everything into account, the best direction for the game to take is to

- Lower the skill cap

- Implement a "variety boost" boost you get from using multiple skills

 

The reason these two things are necessary, is that they counteract and complement each other.

 

Lowering the skill cap would bring more variety, which is objectively better. It's a strong word, but it's true. It would simply be better -- a brain dead monkey with Alzeimhers disease could figure that out =)

 

That semi-troller who said lowering of the skill cap would encourage one-dimensional fighters, was right. It would. A one-dimensional fighter should be a viable stragtegy that can work at the very top. Slow learners HAVE to take this route, and everyone shouldn't have to be a super fast learner.

 

But to counteract the pressure toward simpler fighters (neutral term) from a lower skill cap, a "variety boost" should be implemented. In the same way that GnP opens up for submissions, kicks opens up for punches. This effect is already in the game, but it needs to be tweaked.

 

The way it needs to be tweaked, to encourage variety, is to dramatically increase the chance of something landing if it is used rarely. If you only throw 5 elbows in an entire fight, those 5 elbows should have a much highher chance of landing than if you threw 50. This effect is already inside the game engine, but it needs to be increased.

 

The way to picture this: A MT fighter with with 70 in elbows and 70 in knees should roughly equal to a 140 elbow specialist. The variety of the elbows and knees should be a big factor. Now, it might not be EQUAL, but maybe 85 elbows and 85 knees should be as dangerous as 140 elbows? If you add punches, the opponent is overwhelmed by possibility. This is realistic, which is always a plus.

 

There should be a reason to add say elbows at level 80 to an elite dirty boxer (even if MT value is say 80). This boxer would throw 100 punches in a fight and maybe 10 elbows. They are worth something. It's confusing for the opponent. The "secondary" weapon doesn't have to be that good to be effective. We've all seen elite wrestles outstrike strikers because they are so afraid of the takedown.

 

As it is now, don't bother with the elbows because they are measured against opponents striking defense which is elite, so the elbows won't land.

 

My main point is: Yes, a lower skill cap would create a pressure toward simpler fighters, but an increased "variety boost" would create a pressure in the opposite direction. Even with a low skill cap, a dirty boxer with knees and elbows should be a viable option.

[Mooncutter]

That said, young fighters who are fast learnes will hit their max faster with a lower skill cap. I feel like there should still be some worthwile activity for them, even if it has a small effect on the game. Perhaps it should be possible to "train" up your skill cap?

 

Or maybe introduce a soft cap at 72-75%. And then make learning half as fast up to a maximum of 77%? Something like that. People love progress, even if it is VERY slow.

 

Or have different, randomized soft and hard caps for fighter. One value for the soft cap, and one for the hard. There are so many possiblities.

[762x39]

I am still not sold on the lower skill cap without a major change to how fights happen. Takedowns will have to be a lot easier and escapes and ref standups a lot harder. With the way things are right now, my ground guys all have elite striking d and punches, with at least sensational kicks and elite clinch. Well unless they are new builds but they will get there. They have to have that now to survive long enough to get it to the ground.

 

I like how it is now everyone can build their fighters how they want, you get enough points to make them well rounded. Yes at the top everyone has close to the same skills. I like that it comes down to sliders and hiddens, with a little bit of luck mixed in.

 

I still think this is one of the best setups engine wise I have seen since I started playing. Yes a few small changes could make it better, but don't change the whole game when small changes will do it.

[Mooncutter]

I am still not sold on the lower skill cap without a major change to how fights happen. Takedowns will have to be a lot easier and escapes and ref standups a lot harder. With the way things are right now, my ground guys all have elite striking d and punches, with at least sensational kicks and elite clinch. Well unless they are new builds but they will get there. They have to have that now to survive long enough to get it to the ground.

 

I like how it is now everyone can build their fighters how they want, you get enough points to make them well rounded. Yes at the top everyone has close to the same skills. I like that it comes down to sliders and hiddens, with a little bit of luck mixed in.

 

I still think this is one of the best setups engine wise I have seen since I started playing. Yes a few small changes could make it better, but don't change the whole game when small changes will do it.

 

 

Went through your fighters, didn't see at lot of ground guys at the highest level. Do you really need kicks for a guy with elite wrestling, elite takedown offense, elite punching, and elite clinch (to allow for clinch takedowns?). Why can't you have a short strong guy with elite speed that shoots from a distance, punches some, and moves into clinch and dirty box and do takedowns there?

 

I've seen ground guys doing well at the mid-level with high striking def, and no punching or kicking whatsoever. Can other experienced managers confirm that the ground game is that underpowered? I just came back to the game, but from what I've seen this far it's not underpowered at all. I don't mind that strikers dominate the absolute top, strikers tend to be more popular, so they should dominate the top as far as popularity.

 

Anyway, I think the ground game and the skill cap are two seperate issues.

[gwad12345]

 

Do you really need kicks for a guy with elite wrestling, elite takedown offense, elite punching, and elite clinch?

 

Can other experienced managers confirm that the ground game is that underpowered?

 

Yes and Yes.

 

The fighters you described may have done well under the counter takedown era but they will get absolutely smashed under this engine. I'm talking completely obliterated.

[762x39]

Look at this fight​ this is one of my older fighters that is still hanging on in a newer ORG. He would get killed in a higher one. But he use to be very good in his day. The fight I linked was against a wrestler my guy still has sensational-- wrestling and exceptional+ takedown d. All the other fighter did was takedowns, and all he got was 5 of 37 of them. He tried 1 strike. This is not in the top level, but just an example of what you are talking about. He has elite wrestling and a black belt. I assume elite takedowns but do not know.

 

As for escapes I had mediocre escapes and superb BJJ and still escaped 4 times I think without counting them again. Set counter and escape. I also still reversed him at least once I remember set like that with remarkable transitions.

[madbob]

I kinda feel like this is going a bit in circles.

 

Could a mod not add a poll maybe, what the community thinks, because not everyone is wording their oppinion, but they do have one and there wont be much to add until we know, what the biggest part of the community really thinks would be a good addition.

 

Could look like this. Please add or take something away. But i feel like we need a poll to see what the community thinks. and maybe see who votes for what. You cant make the voting closed for people playing longer then 6 (or what ever number) month, but with that you could check, if you wanted, who voted for it.

 

Flying over quick, all this was mentioned.

 

Cap drop

• Yes
• No
• At a later point, if other changes not make this irrelevant

Shorter In-Game year

• Yes
• No

A Third Training Session

• Yes
• No

Ground Slider Damage/Accuracy

• Yes
• No

Adding Body/Head slider for GNP

• Yes
• No

Why does ground game need adjustment ( make it multiple choice here) and

• Ref Standups
• Escapes
• Takedowns
• ground activity ( standups after punch thrown )
• Points you can gain on the ground ( top position get way to less points, when you dominate the whole round, but punches in standup win the round for the bottom guy )

Change Escapes in Hierarchy (i dont even know where Escapes is placed right now, but it was mentioned)

• Yes
• No

There are more, but they go more in detail to get rid of the problem, that could be later on then other poll`s

 

Will there be an adjustment to Learning speed and energy consumtion, if game time gets shortened and a third training session added?

Also what should maybe be added first, if it comes to that?

Because adding multiple things, might unbalance to much, adding one thing -> adjust, then the next.

 

I was all for the cap drop, but now hearing all the other opinions and explanations. I am not so sure any more. and seeing only 25 people about, posted in here and there are way more manager lurking around in the forum i hope, a poll might help.

 

So this got rather long, sorry for that. lol

[Mooncutter]

Look at this fight​ this is one of my older fighters that is still hanging on in a newer ORG. He would get killed in a higher one. But he use to be very good in his day. The fight I linked was against a wrestler my guy still has sensational-- wrestling and exceptional+ takedown d. All the other fighter did was takedowns, and all he got was 5 of 37 of them. He tried 1 strike. This is not in the top level, but just an example of what you are talking about. He has elite wrestling and a black belt. I assume elite takedowns but do not know.

 

As for escapes I had mediocre escapes and superb BJJ and still escaped 4 times I think without counting them again. Set counter and escape. I also still reversed him at least once I remember set like that with remarkable transitions.

 

I won't post more are this because I feel it's sidetracking the thread.

 

That's crazy you escaped that fast with mediocre escapes against and double elite ground guy. His advantage on the ground should be bigger? But perhaps he had bad hiddens for the ground. He might be low on int or confidence we don't know.

[MMATycoon]

Not to be a jerk here dude but it seems like some people in this game have a better understanding of the engine then you do. When the last set of changes was implemented I specifically asked you about moving 'escapes' under finish/control in the heirarchy. I didn't understand why you were saying escapes working now was going to increase the activity on the ground game w/o it being under finish/control and even specifically asked about counter/control + escapes being over-powered w/ how it was set up.

 

http://www.mmatycoon.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=50571&p=689784 - here is the post

 

"Can you explain how going higher stand and escape is going to help the ground activity? What's to stop guys from still going counter/control and then just setting their sliders to 80 stand and escape? Wouldn't that still lead to low activity on the ground??"

 

And in your response you basically told me that it wouldn't really be possible to go high control and still have escapes work effectively.

 

http://www.mmatycoon.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=50571&p=689818 - your reply

 

"Before you if you go high control the aim is to get a standup. That would work. Going high control and escape isn't really going to get you many escapes cos you're not really trying to escape very often."

 

 

 

Yet I've seen guys post fights where the opponent appears to be on 100 counter/control and still got 4 escapes in the fight. The reason I say appears is because they do 0 subs, 0 sweep attempts, never try to improve their position. All of their ground stats are 0 but yet they still have 4 escapes. So not only is it possible to do that but it appears to be a pretty crippling strategy for the ground guys. I don't remember where these examples were posted so I'm going to lean on some of the guys who've posted examples before (Think JLP was one) to post some examples of this in action.

 

I'm 100% sure that most people at the top of the game will have a much better understanding of the practicalities of the current fight engine.

 

All I can do is talk in terms of conceptual stuff. In these examples;

 

The one you initially quoted, where I've said there's no reason a ground guy should need more skills than a standup guy... We can theoretically make it so that all you need to win a fight in the game is elite takedowns and wrestling. All that requires is a change of balance to the equations. From reading this thread, a good solution would be to ramp up counter takedowns off leg / body kicks, meaning ground guys don't need to have as good kicks and can use those points elsewhere.

 

Your one. My point wasn't that your solution was wrong, it was that there are multiple solutions, as there are to just about any issue with the fight engine, so you don't necessarily need to change the hierarchy. If people are getting too many escapes from high control / counter, you can increase the effectiveness of ground offense or increase the energy cost of constantly trying to control. That's not to say changing the hierarchy isn't a perfectly good solution. I think it is and I think we'll do it - it was just at the time I was hoping we wouldn't have to, cos it's a fairly big job to change hierarchy.

 

------------

 

Just in general, I appreaciate that I shouldn't really have asked you guys your opinion on something then come in and gone "F this, let's do something else instead!"

 

I guess it doesn't really matter which way around we do things. It's perfectly fine to do some patches now and talk about a skill cap reduction afterwards, if the patches are going to make things fundamentally better under the current cap and any future change to a cap.

 

To elaborate on the cap a little bit though, I think I've got a really good solution.

 

- We definitively need to do something about physicals. They are totally and utterly redundant as a concept at the moment, at the top levels of the game. I just had a look at the top 10 guys. They pretty much all have 140 in everything, give or take 5 points one way or another. That sucks and we're gunna fix that.

- If we just put a cap in just for physicals that's going to push a load of points into the rest of the skills and make the fighters more similar elsewhere. However, if everyone's in the same boat with these stupidly high physicals, if we chopped points off physicals and didn't reallocate those points anywhere else... let's say a sliding scale up to 140 if you've maxed your physicals, then that would be a 5%ish drop in total skill points, without having any negative impact.

- If we then add in clinch takedowns and clinch takedown defense and make the existing takedowns and takedown defense for standup only (as I've mentioned in other threads), that's giving us enough points for an effective skill cap decrease of about 10% which would be awesome. Plus, a grappler doesn't necessarily need shoot takedowns and clinch takedowns but a striker would need shoot takedown defense and clinch takedown defense, if you're worried about the balance of skills needed between standup and ground guys.

[UniConor]

If we are going to make some changes to the clinch adding in clinch takedowns and takedown defense which I am not for or against - but I will say it definitely brings in a new aspect of Judo which is never bad.

 

Could we also take a look at the clinch itself, I see a lot of finishes from the clinch TKO's and KO's and not even from knees, just from punches. I don't think I have seen that all that often in MMA fights and since we don't have leg kick TKO's since you have said before, they don't happen often enough. Maybe could we level out the damage inflicted by strikes in the clinch and see clinch as more of a grappling battle rather than a striking battle? Obviously finishes DO happen from the clinch, I'm not saying get rid of them 100% but I just feel the clinch on this game is so different to the clinch I see when I watch a fight card.