Fight Engine Discussion

[MMATycoon]

I totally agree that in real life the clinch is much more of an attritional battle to sap energy these days, rather than a striking area. I was just thinking about that whilst I was writing my post actually. However, in game terms, I'm not sure it would be a great idea to make the clinch less effective if we want variety. You guys may feel differently, I dunno... I just feel like that would make elbows and knees more superfluous. My idea on that point was to have some successful strikes end up with the action back at a distance. That would only need to be flavour text in terms of programming but it would simulate what happens a lot in the real world, where fighters throw an elbow or punch on a break.

 

edit - I know that kinda makes the clinch less powerful, but we could make it easier to get into the clinch to compensate. That would bring clinch takedowns into play a bit more... so it depends whether people want that or not.

[UniConor]

I totally agree that in real life the clinch is much more of an attritional battle to sap energy these days, rather than a striking area. I was just thinking about that whilst I was writing my post actually. However, in game terms, I'm not sure it would be a great idea to make the clinch less effective if we want variety. You guys may feel differently, I dunno... I just feel like that would make elbows and knees more superfluous. My idea on that point was to have some successful strikes end up with the action back at a distance. That would only need to be flavour text in terms of programming but it would simulate what happens a lot in the real world, where fighters throw an elbow or punch on a break.

I feel like if done correctly, the clinch could turn into an attritional battle and would benefit knees and elbows, if punches were weaker and less effective in the clinch. People may want a weapon in the clinch rather than just smother, therefore go for knees and elbows which are more effective in the clinch in the real world.

 

Perhaps this talk is going down the path of adding in clinch positions.

 

Single collar tie benefits punches

 

Muay Thai Plum benefits knees

 

Double underhooks is more grappling and smothering, but can also use knees.

 

Control vs aggressive, if people want to just hold somebody against the cage, thats a legit tactic in MMA wall n stall right. Or if somebody wants to Jon Jones the other person using elbows and knees in close and in transition.

[Wolf]

Yes to physicals overhaul, yes to clinch positions. With physicals would it be possible to add their own skill cap? So you can either be say, elite in two but only wonderful or sth in the rest or go for all round? Or perhaps have separate physical hiddens, so fighter a would 'naturally' be stronger than fighter b. Not sure if that would be viable though.

[MMATycoon]

Yes to physicals overhaul, yes to clinch positions. With physicals would it be possible to add their own skill cap? So you can either be say, elite in two but only wonderful or sth in the rest or go for all round? Or perhaps have separate physical hiddens, so fighter a would 'naturally' be stronger than fighter b. Not sure if that would be viable though.

Yes, we'd put in a separate physicals cap at the same time.

[MMATycoon]

I feel like if done correctly, the clinch could turn into an attritional battle and would benefit knees and elbows, if punches were weaker and less effective in the clinch. People may want a weapon in the clinch rather than just smother, therefore go for knees and elbows which are more effective in the clinch in the real world.

 

Perhaps this talk is going down the path of adding in clinch positions.

 

Single collar tie benefits punches

 

Muay Thai Plum benefits knees

 

Double underhooks is more grappling and smothering, but can also use knees.

 

Control vs aggressive, if people want to just hold somebody against the cage, thats a legit tactic in MMA wall n stall right. Or if somebody wants to Jon Jones the other person using elbows and knees in close and in transition.

 

Clinch positions would be a massive job. Perhaps one day but not in this update.

[UniConor]

 

Clinch positions would be a massive job. Perhaps one day but not in this update.

I feel like clinch takedowns and takedown defense should be a part of that update, rather than this one. But it's your game ultimately

[YerMaw]

 

From reading this thread, a good solution would be to ramp up counter takedowns off leg / body kicks, meaning ground guys don't need to have as good kicks and can use those points elsewhere.

IMO this is a really solid idea: it a) makes the engine more realistic and b ) would go a significant way towards solving the issues with ground builds

 

 

 

- We definitively need to do something about physicals. They are totally and utterly redundant as a concept at the moment, at the top levels of the game. I just had a look at the top 10 guys. They pretty much all have 140 in everything, give or take 5 points one way or another. That sucks and we're gunna fix that.

- If we just put a cap in just for physicals that's going to push a load of points into the rest of the skills and make the fighters more similar elsewhere. However, if everyone's in the same boat with these stupidly high physicals, if we chopped points off physicals and didn't reallocate those points anywhere else... let's say a sliding scale up to 140 if you've maxed your physicals, then that would be a 5%ish drop in total skill points, without having any negative impact.

- If we then add in clinch takedowns and clinch takedown defense and make the existing takedowns and takedown defense for standup only (as I've mentioned in other threads), that's giving us enough points for an effective skill cap decrease of about 10% which would be awesome. Plus, a grappler doesn't necessarily need shoot takedowns and clinch takedowns but a striker would need shoot takedown defense and clinch takedown defense, if you're worried about the balance of skills needed between standup and ground guys.

Yeah I'd definitely be far more supportive of a physicals cap rather than a big drop in the skill cap (obviously adjusting the skill cap accordingly to the drop in max physicals). I also agree with Wolf that if it's possible have a physicals 'hidden' or as I'd call it potential: especially if it can be tied to weight e.g. lighter = higher speed potential, heavier = higher strength potential.

 

---

 

All in all the combination of decreasing the necessity of having a high kicks secondary for ground fighters, the addition of a physicals cap + some engine tweaks to the ground game would make a huge difference to the viability of various builds, and IMO would be great for both the balance of the game + its realism. I'd also add that I think we'd all find it much easier to adapt to these changes rather than some drastic overhaul of the engine and/or a big drop in the skill cap.

[Guest]

I really like the idea of clinch td's and clinch takedown defence along with grapplers not needing as many skill points in kicks, it sounds like a step in the right direction to balance the amount of skills needed between strikers and grapplers. I also like the idea of not being able to be elite in all physicals. If escapes and counter control/ ref stand ups are not as effective too then it could be a really nice change and hopefully mix things up a little.

[shortfuse122829]

I'm glad you're considering the escapes being under finish in the hierarchy because I think you'll kill a few birds with 1 stone with that change.

 

I like some of the ideas proposed but MY preference would be we get these minor tweaks done & have a bigger discussion on a skill cap afterwards. I just think that's a big change that warrants more discussion & would hate to see the engine remain like this for too much longer. A few concerns about a skill cap...

 

1. What happens to fighters who already surpassed that level? I know you're usually opposed to reallocation & I'm not saying that's the best idea but also think it's unfair to just disregard years worth of work. Are these guys gonna be phased out quickly?

 

if they are then what happens to top orgs running ppv's when all their capped fighters are phased out? GAMMA for example booked 93K arenas months out investing millions in arena fees.

[shortfuse122829]

also if they're phased out rather quickly are you willing learning speed & maybe forego VIP hits for cutting fighters so that we can try to reboot rosters more quickly after having years of investment wiped away.

 

so I just think a lot of details are worth hashing out with a big change like that & am hoping we can get these patches squared away

[PBR]

also if they're phased out rather quickly are you willing learning speed & maybe forego VIP hits for cutting fighters so that we can try to reboot rosters more quickly after having years of investment wiped away.

 

so I just think a lot of details are worth hashing out with a big change like that & am hoping we can get these patches squared away

 

when skill cap was put in place and then dropped once that i know of it didnt change the game that drastically where other things had to be changed to make up for it -- if i remember correctly it was a % drop over all skills (only time got to allocate points was when new skill was put in) or course not sure what all mike wants to do or has in plan but just a simple drop in skill cap isnt going to hurt orgs or managers that i see at all really cause its across the board

[MMATycoon]

I can't really see any other way than a skills reallocation, to add in the two new takedown skills. Obviously not making anything higher than it already is, but choose where the points come from.

Maybe rather than a super-fine tuned version. which takes ages to program and is a bit cheaty cos you just take it all from your lowest skills, we can do a

"take points equally"

"take points mostly from your best skills"

"take points mostly from your worst skills"

"take points mostly from standup skills" etc

or something like that. ultimately I don't mind and if we have to make it super detailed like last time to keep people happy, fine... I'd rather not though

 

 

I've already started working on the damage / accuracy slider for GNP today, so that will be first up.

[Mooncutter]

I might be a minority here, but I don't like the idea of capping physicals separately. The game favour fast learners enough, I think, I like the option of keeping my slow learners (with other good hiddens) and turning them into physical beasts.

 

It would be better to make som tweak as not to force everybody to max out the physicals at the top. It would be awesome if it was a viable option to have 120-ish physicals all across thed board for a fighter at the top. But that 145-ish was a viable option too -- of course. 120-ish would free a lot of skill points for ther stuff. Not to harp, but a skill cap that varied between 72-75% would have at least a mild such effect. As maxing out the physicals then would put a big drain on the primaries and secondaries.

 

If the game engine ever gets a big overhaul, I think the goal should be to make as many fighter builds as possible viable, within reason of course. Capping physicals seperatly prevents you from shifting points from one area to the next.

[MMATycoon]

A lower cap would surely mean fast learners are less important?

 

One thing I thought about regarding the physicals cap; we could have another tick box on fighter creation "Fighter is a physical beast". Whereby if we have e.g. a 70-72% cap on physicals, the physical beast could have 74% guaranteed.

[shortfuse122829]

Okay Mike, if allocation is really the only way then it should work out okay. Dunno if it'll help achieve the goals you have in mind but it also won't destroy fighters we've put years into in which case I doubt there will be much blowback so I'm in.

[MMATycoon]

Just putting this here to remind myself as much as anything... With a separate skill cap for physicals, we can have age decline affect that more than the rest of the fighter's skills, in a much more efficient way. Right now the physicals will drop faster but you can keep them artificially inflated by training them. With a separate cap for physicals we could prevent super high physicals for old guys and also could reduce the speed at which actual skills decline.

[MMATycoon]

I just went to program in a boost to counter takedowns off leg and body kicks and it's already there

I guess I can turn that up though.

[MMATycoon]

Anyone got a link to a fight where a grappler is getting leg kicked to bits please?

[Guest]

Anyone got a link to a fight where a grappler is getting leg kicked to bits please?

 

sent you a pm with a link

[bjornmma1]

Just a few quick things I want to mention.

 

1) the number of takedowns that land doesn't seem strange to me ( about 1/3 ), so I would rather see something done about being able to keep it on the ground a bit longer instead of making takedowns easier.

 

2) Lowering the skill cap is something I personally really don't like. I think it's far more fun to have rather complete fighters so that it's harder to predict what the opponent will do and it leaves more options for gameplans and new tactics. Lowering the skill cap would make the amount of possible gameplans go down a lot I believe and also make them far more predictable.

 

=> I think the only thing that the engine right now really needs is that grapplers should be able to get a little more time to play on the ground in my opinion.

[shortfuse122829]

1 change I've been begging for for ages is an increase in the # of moves on the ground, would still love to see that happen. I think that putting "escapes" under finish/control in the hierarchy will actually increase the # of moves on the ground by itself, because forcing guys to get away from counter/control on bottom in order to escape will do that alone. But I also fear that guys will start to see counter/control as a superior strategy to escapes and just go back to using those sliders so I wouldn't mind seeing it either way

[ProphetX]

I'm not for adding more skills that need to be trained and/or points reallocated. Just my opinion of course but when we did the escape/transition change I found it difficult to adjust for some of my fighters.

 

Sliders on the other hand I don't mind the change up. I do agree that the ground game could use some help and oddly enough I always assumed kicking fighters would be susceptible to easier TDs so if we switch that up some I'm already accommodating for it So that works for me. Although I would like to see the Elbows attribute applicable to stand up fighting and not just the clinch (ala Jon Jones). But the ground and pound comments about accuracy/damage slider I am all for.

 

And I know it's long overdue but thank you very much for modifying the Elbows in the clinch to allow for -just- elbows and not elbows and knees no matter what.

 

Any chance of us allowing for a Pride fighting ruleset? Kicking attribute for soccer kicks anyone?

[Rambo]

everything else sounds fine, but don't add clinch takedowns and clinch td defense. we really don't need more skills. terrible idea. everything else was pretty good though.

[MMATycoon]

everything else sounds fine, but don't add clinch takedowns and clinch td defense. we really don't need more skills. terrible idea. everything else was pretty good though.

because?

[Rain]

I have suggested it before, and I'll try to bring that up again. We should make physicals able to be trained up to 20 (let's say World-Class) instead of 15 (Elite). It happens in real life as well, so it's realistic, some fighters are exceptional for their physical abilities. For example:

Anthony Johnson - incredible power and speed combination, really differs from whole division.

 

Junior Dos Santos - incredible speed for a heavyweight, fastest hands in heavyweight.

 

Nick Diaz/Nate Diaz/Cain Velasquez - best cardio in their divisions, period. In MMATycoon pretty much everyone is at Elite conditioning.

 

Stephen Thompson - Flexibility and Agility. His leg dexterity is amazing, he can easily throw KO kicks with his front leg.

 

TJ Dillashaw/Dominick Cruz/Demetrious Johnson - World class agility and footwork.

 

Conor McGregor - agility, balance. Insane movement on the feet.

 

Johny Hendricks - insanely powerful, especially left hand.