Outright, blatant poaching...

[HareRumpler]

I used to think that the poaching was pretty bad at times.  But now it's become just outright blatant and unapologetic!  

Pretty much the purest definition, I mean, textbook stuff here...guy still on contract with another org, being asked what it would take to get him to leave at the end of the contract.  Wow.  

[Rei]

Not something I'd ever do but its a part of the game unfortunately lol

[Alfred]

It is what it is I guess? It might work to snag some managers and it might turn others off for good? People will decide for themselves in the long run. 

[HareRumpler]

6 minutes ago, Alfred said:

It is what it is I guess? It might work to snag some managers and it might turn others off for good? People will decide for themselves in the long run. 

It's just shocking to see it so boldly done.  The community used to burn folks to the ground for this.  In over 3 years running SPPS I never once approached anybody on contract elsewhere.  I guess you're right, managers will either be ok with it or not. I know that for me personally, any org that ever tries to poach one of my guys, or that I know has poached, will never see one of my guys fight for them.  If my guys are interested in testing the waters, then they will fight out their contract and then see what offers come in and go from there.

[popart]

I was on autopilot with this game for a good 6 months- is this Todd's first time running an organization?

I guess the best case scenario would be he just hasn't run an org and didn't think it was frowned upon. I guess. 

 

It's ideally a game you wouldn't want the historic Syn to be playing. People won't be happy with this. 

[CelticStryder]

Didn't realize it was frowned upon to reach out to fighters who were still under contract. Rookie mistake and wont happen again..... My bad and lesson learned.

[jjsquirrel]

Could someone with more insight into the org business than me explain why it is considered such a bad practice?

[Helmans212]

Yeah feel like it would be a good informational thing lol

[Rei]

1 hour ago, jjsquirrel said:

Could someone with more insight into the org business than me explain why it is considered such a bad practice?

I believe its just disrespectful to the promotion that the fighter has currently signed an exclusive  contract with. These kind of practises can be illegal in real life, but the game doesn't have any defence measures for it (as it'd be impossible to do so). It also doesn't really allow that org to counter whatever terms the poacher is offering either, since its all behind closed doors unless the manager decides to let the promotion owner know. Its more than likely that the owner you're signed with would rather match the terms than let you go for nothing.

 

I've personally never once approached a fighter under contract and I have spent years running (ID) orgs, mostly alone. Similarly, if someone approached me when I was under contract, I'd be soured by it and probably refrain from ever signing with them in the future. In my naïve opinion, you should just try to attract fighters from elsewhere by simply making your org look as appealing as possible from the outside - through hands-on management, activity, engagement, uniqueness, graphics, tournaments and events, whatever it may be. Build it and they will come sort of thing. Of course, make it known that you're also willing to shell out the money too, since that's what they all want at the top lol.

 

I guess everyone will have a different opinion on it, after all.

[Rocket]

I'd suggest approach the org their signed with and nor the fighter / manager directly.

[Vlad]

4 hours ago, CelticStryder said:

Didn't realize it was frowned upon to reach out to fighters who were still under contract. Rookie mistake and wont happen again..... My bad and lesson learned.

It's all a learning experience mate! 🙂

 

2 hours ago, Rocket said:

I'd suggest approach the org their signed with and nor the fighter / manager directly.

How about a feature, where an organisation can send a contract to the org that the fighters currently signed to as a means of negotiating?

 

E.g -

Sale Contract

Fighter Name: John Cena

Sale Fee: 500, 000

Signing Bonus:

etc, etc -

 

 

The organisation accepts which allows the contract to go to the fighters manager, if the fighters manager also accepts, both the fighters manager and the org get paid; the fighter gets brought out to the new org?

[ArtieBanks]

5 hours ago, Rei said:

I believe its just disrespectful to the promotion that the fighter has currently signed an exclusive  contract with. These kind of practises can be illegal in real life, but the game doesn't have any defence measures for it (as it'd be impossible to do so). 

 

 

Welcome to the defence measure for it - a forum post. 

Poaching is part of the game always has been and always will be. I've never though seen something as stupid as this. He messaged the org owners alliance members and the former owner of SPPS. I mean you can applaud the bravado but fuck me it was stupid.

 

As Alfred said it works in some instances but in others some people just won't sign with you under any circumstances because you did it. 

[Bob Slay]

Game does facilitate "Loans" of fighters, which for those who aren't familiar with it is often how superfights between orgs are arranged either via a third party host org or one of the two involved acting as host, so there is a way to do a fight with a fighter already under contract all above board and legal if you are looking to fill a slot or create a big main event fight.

So options exist for the sake of flexibility.

I suppose a "Fighter Transfer" option could be added to the game where an org makes a bid for a fighter already under contract to the fighters current org, much like how footbal player transfers happen.

[ArtieBanks]

3 hours ago, Skuzbukit said:

Game does facilitate "Loans" of fighters, which for those who aren't familiar with it is often how superfights between orgs are arranged either via a third party host org or one of the two involved acting as host, so there is a way to do a fight with a fighter already under contract all above board and legal if you are looking to fill a slot or create a big main event fight.

So options exist for the sake of flexibility.

I suppose a "Fighter Transfer" option could be added to the game where an org makes a bid for a fighter already under contract to the fighters current org, much like how footbal player transfers happen.

 

Nah. 

Fighter transfers can happen without the need of a button. It works the exact same way a football transfer happens. You negotiate with the org a buyout, you negotiate a contract with the fighter and when all parties are happy the deal can be concluded. Implementing something like that in the game is a lot of work for something that can be done in good faith. I am probably not the only one who wouldn't be happy getting transferred to another org without my consent. 

It also isn't a frequent enough thing that happens within the game to give it much thought. Poaching is usually done more subtle than Celtic's sledgehammer. You usually start with people you know and can trust - ask them about coming over when their contract expires, new opponents, better money and all that jazz. Football has a term for it called 'tapping up'. Anyway, this topic used to be a twice a year thing and i've always said the same thing. It happens, if you can't beat em, join em. 

[Bob Slay]

On 8/21/2023 at 11:44 PM, ArtieBanks said:

 

Nah. 

Fighter transfers can happen without the need of a button. It works the exact same way a football transfer happens. You negotiate with the org a buyout, you negotiate a contract with the fighter and when all parties are happy the deal can be concluded. Implementing something like that in the game is a lot of work for something that can be done in good faith. I am probably not the only one who wouldn't be happy getting transferred to another org without my consent. 

It also isn't a frequent enough thing that happens within the game to give it much thought. Poaching is usually done more subtle than Celtic's sledgehammer. You usually start with people you know and can trust - ask them about coming over when their contract expires, new opponents, better money and all that jazz. Football has a term for it called 'tapping up'. Anyway, this topic used to be a twice a year thing and i've always said the same thing. It happens, if you can't beat em, join em. 

Yeah that sounds better

[soyster89]

I likely have a different take on this, but I'm also not an org owner.

I feel that while I understand org owners frown upon it, it's much like how employers frown upon headhunters trying to take their talent in the real world. You want to keep your talent, make them happy. I don't feel there's anything overtly wrong with orgs offering a fighter future contract discussions. The root issue isn't with the other org trying to take your talent. The decision to leave or stay is still on the fighter/manager. 

[Rocket]

42 minutes ago, soyster89 said:

I likely have a different take on this, but I'm also not an org owner.

I feel that while I understand org owners frown upon it, it's much like how employers frown upon headhunters trying to take their talent in the real world. You want to keep your talent, make them happy. I don't feel there's anything overtly wrong with orgs offering a fighter future contract discussions. The root issue isn't with the other org trying to take your talent. The decision to leave or stay is still on the fighter/manager. 

It's applying real world law and morality into an online game, ultimately. Which is always going to be fraught with "it's just a game" comments etc.

I think you're right, if I'm honest. Regardless of how much orgs love to keep their fighters, the contracts are still binding. Once a fighter has ended his contract he is free to move on. Whether an org has spoken to that fighter or not, the manager has likely made up his mind already. 

Make your org the place fighters want to be at, and that's not just about finance btw. And if anyone poaches your guys, hire some talent scouts to be out there poaching theirs.

As I said though it would be courteous to let the org know you are contacting their fighter.

 

[CelticStryder]

On 8/21/2023 at 2:01 PM, ArtieBanks said:

 

Welcome to the defence measure for it - a forum post. 

Poaching is part of the game always has been and always will be. I've never though seen something as stupid as this. He messaged the org owners alliance members and the former owner of SPPS. I mean you can applaud the bravado but fuck me it was stupid.

 

As Alfred said it works in some instances but in others some people just won't sign with you under any circumstances because you did it. 

I am going to offer another way to look at it and then leave it alone..... Maybe I was actually being honest when this thread was brought to my attention and posted that I was not aware this was a frowned upon practice and that it wouldn't happen again. Obviously from some of the responses here I am not the only one that didn't know better. Perhaps a better practice would have been to give the new org owner the benefit of the doubt and reach out to say "Hey just so you are aware this kind of thing is really frowned upon and might make you a lot of enemies". Seems like a pretty simple and quick way to know if someone is purposely saying fuck the unwritten rule or if they legit just didn't know any better. Thank you to those who chose to take that route rather than the nuclear option. I am not going to name name.... those people know who they are.

I'd ask everyone to go back and re-read the message thread the OP posted and you can decide for yourself if that was enough that I should have taken that as explaining that it is frowned upon or if you can see how maybe I could have seen that message as a joke with the winky face and that my response in turn was also meant to be a joke. If you still honestly want to believe I am the kind of person that would purposely reach out to the org owners alliance members and not care then i'll own that because nothing I can say or do is going to change your mind. If you've had much of an interaction with me at all in this game then you'll know that's not the kind of person I am.

[Rei]

14 minutes ago, CelticStryder said:

I am going to offer another way to look at it and then leave it alone..... Maybe I was actually being honest when this thread was brought to my attention and posted that I was not aware this was a frowned upon practice and that it wouldn't happen again. Obviously from some of the responses here I am not the only one that didn't know better. Perhaps a better practice would have been to give the new org owner the benefit of the doubt and reach out to say "Hey just so you are aware this kind of thing is really frowned upon and might make you a lot of enemies". Seems like a pretty simple and quick way to know if someone is purposely saying fuck the unwritten rule or if they legit just didn't know any better. Thank you to those who chose to take that route rather than the nuclear option. I am not going to name name.... those people know who they are.

I'd ask everyone to go back and re-read the message thread the OP posted and you can decide for yourself if that was enough that I should have taken that as explaining that it is frowned upon or if you can see how maybe I could have seen that message as a joke with the winky face and that my response in turn was also meant to be a joke. If you still honestly want to believe I am the kind of person that would purposely reach out to the org owners alliance members and not care then i'll own that because nothing I can say or do is going to change your mind. If you've had much of an interaction with me at all in this game then you'll know that's not the kind of person I am.

I made my thoughts / stance on the subject pretty clear but I definitely don't have anything against you personally or as SYN's new owner. It's all good.

[CelticStryder]

1 hour ago, Rei said:

I made my thoughts / stance on the subject pretty clear but I definitely don't have anything against you personally or as SYN's new owner. It's all good.

Appreciate the honesty and not holding it against me brother.

[HareRumpler]

The winky was due to the dripping sarcasm behind the "Syn has always sworn they don't poach" comment I made.  Because they damned well used to before as well, just more subtle.  

The new sheriff in town comment made it pretty clear to me that you knew what you were doing and were implying that this was the "new" way.  If that wasn't the intent, ok.  But I've seen this backpedal approach many times in the past once people are called out for it.  Nobody will ever know the true intent here, obviously.  So, we'll let the interaction, documented fully and objectively, speak for whatever people interpret it as.  

I personally have seen too much of this in the past and it's part of what has soured me on the game.  I call it a more "intangible" cheat mode, but the money glitches used by certain orgs in the past *ahem* are a big reason for my souring.  So, I'll stand by my concerns, and I am one of those folks that somebody earlier referred to who pretty much won't be involved with orgs that I feel do this once I've seen it.  This is just my personal take, I'm not trying to push anybody else to make the same decisions, but as somebody said, the only defense against this stuff is a forum post and to call it out.

Granted, the guys I picked up from Syn were picked up for laundering and spar-botting anyways and their fighting days are over, so that won't matter much. 

[CelticStryder]

1 hour ago, HareRumpler said:

I personally have seen too much of this in the past and it's part of what has soured me on the game.  I call it a more "intangible" cheat mode, but the money glitches used by certain orgs in the past *ahem* are a big reason for my souring.  So, I'll stand by my concerns, and I am one of those folks that somebody earlier referred to who pretty much won't be involved with orgs that I feel do this once I've seen it.  This is just my personal take, I'm not trying to push anybody else to make the same decisions, but as somebody said, the only defense against this stuff is a forum post and to call it out.

I have no idea what you are trying to insinuate here or what you are going on about. I can assure you I have no cheat code or money glitch and any cash I have was earned through my graphics work and running my clothing shop. There was no pot of glitch money handed to me when I took over SYN aside from the few million that was in the org account and on the rankings board for all to see. Most of that money has already been invested in booking future arenas before they fill up and into contract offers to bring in new talent. I am in no way associated with whatever or have any knowledge of whatever you think previous SYN owners were doing. I made the posters and when a new owner was needed to keep one of the most historic orgs in the game going I agreed being the only SYN staff member left that wasn't taking a break from the game. At the end of the day I am just a guy trying to learn how to run a top org on the fly and not fuck it up.

[ArtieBanks]

11 hours ago, CelticStryder said:

I am going to offer another way to look at it and then leave it alone..... Maybe I was actually being honest when this thread was brought to my attention and posted that I was not aware this was a frowned upon practice and that it wouldn't happen again. Obviously from some of the responses here I am not the only one that didn't know better. Perhaps a better practice would have been to give the new org owner the benefit of the doubt and reach out to say "Hey just so you are aware this kind of thing is really frowned upon and might make you a lot of enemies". Seems like a pretty simple and quick way to know if someone is purposely saying fuck the unwritten rule or if they legit just didn't know any better. Thank you to those who chose to take that route rather than the nuclear option. I am not going to name name.... those people know who they are.

I'd ask everyone to go back and re-read the message thread the OP posted and you can decide for yourself if that was enough that I should have taken that as explaining that it is frowned upon or if you can see how maybe I could have seen that message as a joke with the winky face and that my response in turn was also meant to be a joke. If you still honestly want to believe I am the kind of person that would purposely reach out to the org owners alliance members and not care then i'll own that because nothing I can say or do is going to change your mind. If you've had much of an interaction with me at all in this game then you'll know that's not the kind of person I am.

 

I'd understand it more if it wasn't for the fact that I didn't receive messages for a few of my fighters - only one and he isn't in the top 10 lists and the only one in SPPS. Hence the reason why Hare isn't amused at it since SPPS is his baby and you actively targeted the org which was already suffering due to fighters leaving. I mean you weren't the only one - sharks had been swimming around SPPS for a while but most were smart enough to keep it within their friendship groups. 

As far as the 'better practice' goes? A few of us messaged you. 

'Dude, i'm in the same alliance as the SPPS owner... actually a fair few of us are that you contacted. '

As I said previously poaching is part of the game - always has been and always will be. However, this was the most stupid/naive attempt I have seen in a while. As far as the joke goes - Hare was SPPS's long time owner and you were going after its fighters. You just have to exist to know that trying to joke about something after doing something fucked up is going to go down like a fart in an elevator (this isn't to saying poaching isn't fucked up but contacting Hare was). The winky face was clearly sarcasm - it was basically a middle finger as Hare explained - Stevie Wonder could have figured that one out. 

Anyway, appears the lesson has been learned sadly the hard way as it often is with this game. 

[Rocket]

44 minutes ago, ArtieBanks said:

 

I'd understand it more if it wasn't for the fact that I didn't receive messages for a few of my fighters - only one and he isn't in the top 10 lists and the only one in SPPS. Hence the reason why Hare isn't amused at it since SPPS is his baby and you actively targeted the org which was already suffering due to fighters leaving. I mean you weren't the only one - sharks had been swimming around SPPS for a while but most were smart enough to keep it within their friendship groups. 

As far as the 'better practice' goes? A few of us messaged you. 

'Dude, i'm in the same alliance as the SPPS owner... actually a fair few of us are that you contacted. '

As I said previously poaching is part of the game - always has been and always will be. However, this was the most stupid/naive attempt I have seen in a while. As far as the joke goes - Hare was SPPS's long time owner and you were going after its fighters. You just have to exist to know that trying to joke about something after doing something fucked up is going to go down like a fart in an elevator (this isn't to saying poaching isn't fucked up but contacting Hare was). The winky face was clearly sarcasm - it was basically a middle finger as Hare explained - Stevie Wonder could have figured that one out. 

Anyway, appears the lesson has been learned sadly the hard way as it often is with this game. 

You'd think Celtic had committed murder.

Jesus Christ, you all need to give your head a shake and move on.

This all stinks of insecurity and self entitlement.

Celtic has done nothing wrong.

[CelticStryder]

35 minutes ago, Rocket said:

You'd think Celtic had committed murder.

Jesus Christ, you all need to give your head a shake and move on.

This all stinks of insecurity and self entitlement.

Celtic has done nothing wrong.

Appreciate the support brother. I did unknowingly break an unwritten rule and have publicly taken ownership and apologized. If some people want to believe that is just back peddling and trying to save face then it is what it is. Not much I can say or do to prove otherwise. Hopefully this thread can serve to make other new org owners aware that contacting fighters already under contract is frowned upon so they don't unknowingly make the same mistake. This game is already in desperate need of fresh players. Especially ones who are willing to contribute to the game and the community doing things like running orgs long term. I wonder why that is when we choose to public flame and ostracize the few willing for a simple mistake.