Different tactics per round

[Guest]

well the example is not a good one i gave --- try this say a fighter wants to come out and work some leg kicks to slow his opponent down (lets say 5rd fight) for couple rounds then start trying more takedowns in later rounds --- im not really talking about 100% one thing then the other next round -- just the ability to change it up some -- as i say takedowns are harder to land 1st or 2nd round (against some) -- i say it gets somewhat boring unable to change it up some -- maybe im trying to aim for more technical then what some want but i just think it would add a total control to the game -- i dont think it would end up as i stated with totally 100% different things each round but just the ability to do more of one or another during said rounds

 

Yeah, I agree with you and I love this idea actually, it just have some minor problems and that's it, but I am still leaning to it like I did few months ago.

 

And sorry for not being specific, but the "you" on my last post is actually edwardsfan[as he's worry about someone try to leg kicks and suddenly clinch and knees his fighter for no reason which I don't see any problem with] not you, I am actually on your side LOLZ

[Guest]

my concern with the whole idea isnt about someone going for leg kicks early and then goin for head shots later. all that type of stuff is great and im definately all for. what concerns me is when you'll have ppl flopping back and forth between counter and aggressive. thats when the tides shift from it being skill, preparation and strategy to just being luck of the draw.

 

for instance, lets say that a manager knows going into a fight that he wants to be counter when his opponents aggressive and aggressive when his opponents counter. here's the delema that you'll be facing

 

ROUND 1: i HOPE that my opponent comes out aggressive so ima set my sliders to counter

ROUND 2: i HOPE that my opponent decides to switch to counter in the 2nd becos ima set my sliders to aggressive

ROUND 3: i HOPE that my opponent comes out counter again becos im setting my sliders to aggressive

ROUND 4: i HOPE that my opponent comes out aggressive this round becos im setting my sliders to counter

ROUND 5: hmmm....5th round. ima just flip a coin and HOPE i guess right

 

 

for me....one of the most fullfilling things about this game is when you have a big fight, you take the time to scout your opponent and you make the correct read and win the fight. once you add in so many more combinations it seems to me that it will be all but impossible to peg your opponent like you can now. basically what im saying is that i think its devaluing game knowledge and sliders.

 

anyways, right or wrong, thats my opinion

[PBR]

my concern with the whole idea isnt about someone going for leg kicks early and then goin for head shots later. all that type of stuff is great and im definately all for. what concerns me is when you'll have ppl flopping back and forth between counter and aggressive. thats when the tides shift from it being skill, preparation and strategy to just being luck of the draw.

 

for instance, lets say that a manager knows going into a fight that he wants to be counter when his opponents aggressive and aggressive when his opponents counter. here's the delema that you'll be facing

 

ROUND 1: i HOPE that my opponent comes out aggressive so ima set my sliders to counter

ROUND 2: i HOPE that my opponent decides to switch to counter in the 2nd becos ima set my sliders to aggressive

ROUND 3: i HOPE that my opponent comes out counter again becos im setting my sliders to aggressive

ROUND 4: i HOPE that my opponent comes out aggressive this round becos im setting my sliders to counter

ROUND 5: hmmm....5th round. ima just flip a coin and HOPE i guess right

 

 

for me....one of the most fullfilling things about this game is when you have a big fight, you take the time to scout your opponent and you make the correct read and win the fight. once you add in so many more combinations it seems to me that it will be all but impossible to peg your opponent like you can now. basically what im saying is that i think its devaluing game knowledge and sliders.

 

anyways, right or wrong, thats my opinion

 

again the happens in real life -- people change game plans and adapt -- while they do it during the fight we cant we must be able to do it before the fight but at this moment we cant -- people come out aggressive some rounds and counter others to conserve energy

[Guest]

again the happens in real life -- people change game plans and adapt -- while they do it during the fight we cant we must be able to do it before the fight but at this moment we cant -- people come out aggressive some rounds and counter others to conserve energy

and again, my argument back to you is, in real life they are making changes on the fly as the fight is unfolding. on this game you set your sliders before the fight happens. you have no idea if your gonna be winning or losing. so how realistic would it be to change your gameplan after you dominated a round 10-8?

 

[edit] also in this game your just as likely to win a round being counter as your being aggressive which kinda works against the idea that your creating. i understand completely the angles that your looking at it from and its valid. you want to be able to work a out a gameplan and methodically work your way to the victory. but im looking at it from a different perspective. there's slider setups that trump other slider setups on this game. thats what im eluding to. if there's no way to pinpoint what your opponent is gonna try to do then its just a lot of guesswork which isnt that attractive to me

[Guest]

and again, my argument back to you is, in real life they are making changes on the fly as the fight is unfolding. on this game you set your sliders before the fight happens. you have no idea if your gonna be winning or losing. so how realistic would it be to change your gameplan after you dominated a round 10-8?

 

[edit] also in this game your just as likely to win a round being counter as your being aggressive which kinda works against the idea that your creating. i understand completely the angles that your looking at it from and its valid. you want to be able to work a out a gameplan and methodically work your way to the victory. but im looking at it from a different perspective. there's slider setups that trump other slider setups on this game. thats what im eluding to. if there's no way to pinpoint what your opponent is gonna try to do then its just a lot of guesswork which isnt that attractive to me

 

That will increase the usefulness of intelligence and experience in my opinion. You don't have to worry about your plan failing when you drag the bar to maybe like 50% see how it goes and your fighter has the tactical IQ of Sun Tze. And I don't think many people will go for the risky route of aggresive-counter-aggresive-counter approach, and even if they do, you can always find a strategy that can counter both extremely aggressive and extremely counter-prone and just use that for the whole fight. Well, my main point is on the first sentence.

[guinepighamster]

I don't know why it is so confusing. I think that adding a little Round 1 2 3 at the sliders and being able to change sliders for each round wouldn't be so hard and would make the game more exciting and real. In the long run everyone will still be able to notice what strategies each fighter has depending on the round, making the fights less predictable without giving anyone an advantage. I think its a good idea.

[DaveBarrera]

I stick with the idea. This will add strategic depth to the game.

[Guest]

And I don't think many people will go for the risky route of aggresive-counter-aggresive-counter approach, and even if they do, you can always find a strategy that can counter both extremely aggressive and extremely counter-prone and just use that for the whole fight.

so basically what your saying is that if i dont want to guess then i shouldnt use it nah im just kidding i see what your saying. although i disagree with you im not totally against it. it probly wont be as bad as what im thinking it will be

[PBR]

so basically what your saying is that if i dont want to guess then i shouldnt use it nah im just kidding i see what your saying. although i disagree with you im not totally against it. it probly wont be as bad as what im thinking it will be

 

probably so cause actually they still have to have the skills to pull off whatever they try ----- i like it not just for totally changing game plan but even little things like you know your next fight the guy always comes out aggressive -- well you can counter the first round or two till he tires out -- then turn up your aggression in the later rounds

[Guest]

probably so cause actually they still have to have the skills to pull off whatever they try ----- i like it not just for totally changing game plan but even little things like you know your next fight the guy always comes out aggressive -- well you can counter the first round or two till he tires out -- then turn up your aggression in the later rounds

i understand what your saying and i'll concede

[Guest]

How close is this to being implimented then?

[PBR]

not even sure if it ever will -- this is just discussion on it -- im sure either way its a pretty good ways off

[DeadlyDirk]

I still think it's a great idea and would add a lot more depth to fights. as well as long term planning and training.

[Guest]

I haven't browsed the entire thread so this may have been dealt with already.

 

As an answer to the problem of people wildly changing their sliders and intelligence being diminished:

 

1) Tie the ability to change sliders into the intelligence stat. We've all seen fights where one of the fighters has been told by his corner going into the 2nd/3rd round to do something differently... and then he just doesn't. Either have it as a simple yes/no check against intelligence or a sliding scale: i.e. first round I have 80% counter and 80% accuracy. Round 2 I want 80% aggression and 70% power... the game checks against my fighters intelligence... if I pass with flying colours then my fighter moves the whole way... if I only just pass my fighter would move to say 10% aggression and 5% power... if I just fail he moves to 10% accuracy and counter... if I fail badly he goes to 70% accuracy and 70% counter.

 

or

 

2) Diminishing returns. The more dramatic a change the less effective a fighter is. A fighter's who's been standing on the outside for 2 rounds hasn't got his timing in for shooting for takedowns, pressing into the clinch, working through guard etc etc. If a fighter changes gameplans then his skills take a hit when calculating what happens for the next round... high intelligence a minor hit, low intelligence a pretty severe one. I can see an issue here if a fighter simply wants to make a minor change (such as slowly ramping up the aggression each round) but you could balance how dramatic the change is with the reduction in effectiveness. A fighter, even a low intelligence one, changing one or two sliders by 10-20% would have virtually no loss to skill... a fighter, even with high intelligence, playing with all the sliders for big changes would still have a significant penalty.

 

Are these workable?

[Guest]

i think it would b a great idea get into the game more and allows me for better gameplans and i hope u get it soon ima submission wreslter and would like to tire my opponent out first b4 the takedowns witch will b much easier and also many ppl r for it and the ones thats are not for it arent competely against it

[ajperok]

at first I was against this, or didn't think much of the idea.

 

Over the past few months I've grown to appreciate the complexity of the fight engine, and think this would be an incredibly awesome addition.

 

In many fights you are forced to choose between strategies, I know you can set your fighter to adapt... but sometimes the change is too radical to expect them to do it on their own. To be able to adjust from round to round would be a great addition which would only benefit managerial skill.

 

If your a wrestler/boxer and the first period you attempt to take your opponent down, realize it's not going to happen- then you change up your strategy to try to fight on your feet .

I totally disagree this is somehow "unrealistic", if you have the skill set, you have the skill set- that is what training is about. The only thing "unrealistic" would be if a fighter somehow was so uber he could fight equally awesomely anyway he wanted.

[Guest]

at first I was against this, or didn't think much of the idea.

 

Over the past few months I've grown to appreciate the complexity of the fight engine, and think this would be an incredibly awesome addition.

 

In many fights you are forced to choose between strategies, I know you can set your fighter to adapt... but sometimes the change is too radical to expect them to do it on their own. To be able to adjust from round to round would be a great addition which would only benefit managerial skill.

 

If your a wrestler/boxer and the first period you attempt to take your opponent down, realize it's not going to happen- then you change up your strategy to try to fight on your feet .

I totally disagree this is somehow "unrealistic", if you have the skill set, you have the skill set- that is what training is about. The only thing "unrealistic" would be if a fighter somehow was so uber he could fight equally awesomely anyway he wanted.

 

I think the "unrealistic" accusations come from the fact that we've seen fighters with diverse skills come in with one gameplan... and stick to it, even when it clearly isn't working. Gurgel is one example... a BJJ blackbelt who's happy to get beaten up standing (although his knees account for some of that). Sherk is another... a top level wrestler who in recent fights has decided he's going to try to be a boxer. Babalu who came in against Lambert and decided to throw knees from the outside without having his hands up and sort of forgot he's a wrestler and grappler as well... the list goes on.

 

Being able to adapt a gameplan on the fly... even with a coaches assistance... is a skill in and off itself. That's why I'd like to see it tied to some other stats... be it experience, intelligence, confidence (although that might be counter-intuitive... a more confident fighter might be less likely to change his gameplan even if at first it doesn't work) or some combination thereof.

[ajperok]

I can understand the discussion and any reservations for sure-

 

Though my thoughts are trying to avoid the 25 unsuccesful takedown attempts, where after a handful I would have changed up gameplan. Or Coming out big going for the KO quick, then settling in for a longer fight.. or vice versa, letting a super aggro wear himself out- stuff like that

 

I wasn't so much thinking the first period I'll box, then the 2nd I'll wrestle and the 3rd I'll go Muay Thai- I realize we have some uber fighters that might be able to do that, and I don't care for that much either. I was really just thinking about not trying the same unsuccesful tactics the whole game. I do give my fighters some room to adjust their game plan, but I'm not sure how much adjustment they make.

[Guest]

Being able to adapt a gameplan on the fly... even with a coaches assistance... is a skill in and off itself. That's why I'd like to see it tied to some other stats... be it experience, intelligence, confidence (although that might be counter-intuitive... a more confident fighter might be less likely to change his gameplan even if at first it doesn't work) or some combination thereof.

 

I think that being able to choose different tactics per round would add more strategy to game and would make game planning more important, which is IMO a good thing. BUT it shouldn't be something that every fighter could do effectively so I also would like to see it being tied to hiddens.

[Guest]

To me, this doesn't really seem like a useful addition. Changing tactics needs to be done based on how you performed in the previous round, and seeing as we cannot do that, I don't think this change has much value.

 

However, how about a system where you set "Plan A" and "Plan B" sliders? Your fighter will use Plan A sliders by default in a fight, but as the fight progresses he will try to use the second slider set if he is losing (if he is intelligent enough to do so) - there is probably a lot of problems with that idea, but to me it seems better than per round sliders.

[PBR]

To me, this doesn't really seem like a useful addition. Changing tactics needs to be done based on how you performed in the previous round, and seeing as we cannot do that, I don't think this change has much value.

 

not really -- i will use this as an example -- http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=224131 -- i know Fwapp comes out throwing bombs going for the quick ko -- so i want to counter a lot first round or two till he tires out some (as i did) -- then in later rounds turn up the aggression with him (which i cant) ---------- i dont think people look at this or maybe think this way but this is why i think this would be a great addition and i hope it happens -- now i know everyone dont agree but its pretty crazy to have the same tatics for each round when strategy like i stated above can be used -- sometimes its a matter of surviving the first round or two then turn the fight your way -- to have to stick to countering the whole fight isnt normal -- the same for going for takedowns -- sometimes its hard to get takedowns in first or sec cause their energy is up but in later rounds you can get the takedown much more often -- i guess its all to someones taste but it just seems odd you have to fight the same fight for every round when its not like that at all

 

 

 

edited: i win this fight if i could change tatics per round

[DeadlyDirk]

not really -- i will use this as an example -- http://www.mmatycoon.com/fightcommentary.php?FTID=224131 -- i know Fwapp comes out throwing bombs going for the quick ko -- so i want to counter a lot first round or two till he tires out some (as i did) -- then in later rounds turn up the aggression with him (which i cant) ---------- i dont think people look at this or maybe think this way but this is why i think this would be a great addition and i hope it happens -- now i know everyone dont agree but its pretty crazy to have the same tatics for each round when strategy like i stated above can be used -- sometimes its a matter of surviving the first round or two then turn the fight your way -- to have to stick to countering the whole fight isnt normal -- the same for going for takedowns -- sometimes its hard to get takedowns in first or sec cause their energy is up but in later rounds you can get the takedown much more often -- i guess its all to someones taste but it just seems odd you have to fight the same fight for every round when its not like that at all

 

That's exactly how I see it as well, another scenario is when you face someone who you suspect has very good takedown defence, yet you feel your best chance to win is on the ground. You might want to throw a lot of leg kicks and body shots in the first few rounds to weaken his defences and tire him out, however what you don't want to do is tire yourself out by going for takedowns early on. In the last or latter round(s) you may then think you have a chance of taking him down and want to go for a few more takedowns.

 

Or perhaps in another fight you might feel that you have an advantage in the clinch but will struggle to achieve getting the clinch early on until the other guy is tired out and slowed down. You might want to avoid trying to clinch early on so you don't waste energy and time trying to do something you can't but later on in the latter rounds you might want to push it up a little and try to clinch more when you feel you'll have a higher success rate of getting it.

[PBR]

That's exactly how I see it as well, another scenario is when you face someone who you suspect has very good takedown defence, yet you feel your best chance to win is on the ground. You might want to throw a lot of leg kicks and body shots in the first few rounds to weaken his defences and tire him out, however what you don't want to do is tire yourself out by going for takedowns early on. In the last or latter round(s) you may then think you have a chance of taking him down and want to go for a few more takedowns.

 

Or perhaps in another fight you might feel that you have an advantage in the clinch but will struggle to achieve getting the clinch early on until the other guy is tired out and slowed down. You might want to avoid trying to clinch early on so you don't waste energy and time trying to do something you can't but later on in the latter rounds you might want to push it up a little and try to clinch more when you feel you'll have a higher success rate of getting it.

yea its pretty simple to me about the idea but as stated i use and vision fights like that sometimes -- as i edited in the post i put i think if able to change some tatics i would of and could win that last round -- but i think most are scared of total different stuff every round -- this could be true but i dont think its smart to do it that way -- i mean most fighters are well rounded but they are only strong enough or use certain skills most of the time but being able to change things up arent a fly by round or have to watch see each round -- as i stated above that game planning can be done before hand -- i just hope it does happen -- if not will continue to deal with it either way but i think it would make things better for people that scout or do plan some tatics

[Guest]

when you face someone who you suspect has very good takedown defence, yet you feel your best chance to win is on the ground. You might want to throw a lot of leg kicks and body shots in the first few rounds to weaken his defences and tire him out, however what you don't want to do is tire yourself out by going for takedowns early on. In the last or latter round(s) you may then think you have a chance of taking him down and want to go for a few more takedowns.

thi

Or perhaps in another fight you might feel that you have an advantage in the clinch but will struggle to achieve getting the clinch early on until the other guy is tired out and slowed down. You might want to avoid trying to clinch early on so you don't waste energy and time trying to do something you can't but later on in the latter rounds you might want to push it up a little and try to clinch more when you feel you'll have a higher success rate of getting it.

 

This. I don't know why people wouldn't want this to be implemented. I see no way how it could effect this game negatively. I don't know if it's a lot of work or not, but it makes no difference, because it's not like there's a huge flaw that needs to be fixed. So I don't think there's any hurry to get this implemented, I think things are just great the way they are, but this could make things even better.

[DeadlyDirk]

This. I don't know why people wouldn't want this to be implemented. I see no way how it could effect this game negatively. I don't know if it's a lot of work or not, but it makes no difference, because it's not like there's a huge flaw that needs to be fixed. So I don't think there's any hurry to get this implemented, I think things are just great the way they are, but this could make things even better.

 

Exactly, it doesn't have to be to the point that people are wildly changing tactics for every round but just helping a fighter work to his strengths by setting things up in the earlier rounds so that they can be more succesful towards the end of the fight. That's pretty common practice in my opinion in MMA. Of course fighters don't go for drastic changes and some may be better than others at adapting (That's where things like Intelligence and Experience would come in) but I certainly don't think that all fighters go in to every round executing exactly the same gameplan.

 

I'm sure it would take a lot of work to add something like this but in my opinion it's the single biggest improvement that could be made to the game. Either way I'm sure I'll still be playing and I agree that it's a great game anyway but this could make it even better and add a lot of depth to tactics and scouting.

 

I'd be interested to see what Mike thinks of the idea now considering he originally brought this up around 18 months ago and said "I reckon it would be probably the best improvement we could do at the moment. " so he obviously thought it was a good idea at the time. That may have changed now of course but I really can't see the negative side of it other than perhaps it may make the game a little harder for some.

 

Would it be possible to add a poll to the topic to see what the general consensus is on this at the moment?