Fight engine improvements (April '15 discussion)

[JLP]

I also think it would be a good time for Mike to have a separate skill cap for physicals. I've brought it up before and I know he likes the idea. Random limits can be assigned to each physical for a fighter upon creation. More hiddens can be added to give a bonus to the cap of each physical, like "Naturally strong" gets you +25 to your strength cap. Or a "good athlete" gets you +5 to all physicals.

[Wolf]

I also think it would be a good time for Mike to have a separate skill cap for physicals. I've brought it up before and I know he likes the idea. Random limits can be assigned to each physical for a fighter upon creation. More hiddens can be added to give a bonus to the cap of each physical, like "Naturally strong" gets you +25 to your strength cap. Or a "good athlete" gets you +5 to all physicals.

 

I like this idea a lot, adding hiddens for physicals would be a great addition imo

[shortfuse122829]

Mike doesnt really test the engine by using managers to help. Thats why the problems show up down the line. He's not really keyed into how to play the game because he isnt a serious player. The first day predict was talked about I got an email from Duphus saying how it would kill grapplers and he was right on. It just took a few months of playing for the less savvy managers to pick up on it.

I don't know where you are coming up with the 2 years bit. The engine became unbalanced in Nov when predict and the legkick speed sap came into effect. That pretty much killed grapplers. Before that, you could live as a grappler despite ref standups because it was possible to get a TD and have the energy ratio fairly even. The CTD era was the best and most balanced engine we ever had and the most fun.

I didnt know Island fighters were getting a bump, but unless its to about 72-75% it still wont give us any information on how the high end of the game will work out.

 

 

Yeah CTD era was the most balanced, it took guys a while to figure out how to overcome it because everybody at the beginning was trying to find ways to stop the CTD, but they were only harming themselves by falling behind energy wise in the striking game which inevitably opened up the counter attempts anyway. I have quite a few guys who have been decimated by the changes. Temel & Jacobs are the two that come to mind most. I think it's because neither one of them has very good power, so I typically fall behind on energy in the stand-up and no longer have CTD to even that back out.

 

Jacobs: before the changes

 

W Harry Punani Decision (Unanimous) Ascension 87 2014-10-29 205 5 05:00 view W Ernie Els Decision (Unanimous) Ascension 84 2014-10-12 205 3 05:00 view W Stan Paige Submission (Armbar)http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/tinyaward.jpg Ascension 78 Shutdown 2014-09-14 205 1 04:57 view W Maester Ochu Decision (Unanimous) Ascension : 275 Big Dipper 2014-08-31 205 3 05:00 view W Christer Pettersson Submission (Armbar)http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/tinyaward.jpg Ascension: 20 2014-07-20 205 1 04:32 view L Maester Ochu Decision (Unanimous) Ascension: 2 2014-07-02 205 3 05:00 view L LeRoy LeBlanc Decision (Unanimous) Ascension: Falling to Pieces 2014-06-04 205 3 05:00 view W Gunner Malone TKO (Strikes) Ascension: New Breed Finale 2014-05-25 205 1 03:48 view W Hjalmar Klason KO (Punches)http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/tinyaward.jpg Ascension: Cold 2014-05-07 205 3 01:08 view W Kurokawa Kenji TKO (Cut) Ascension: New Breed FW - QF 2014-04-20 205 2 04:14 view W Christer Pettersson Decision (Majority)

 

 

Jacobs: after the changes

 

L Malietoa Feti Decision (Unanimous) Ascension 315 2015-04-17 205 3 05:00 view W Bang Bang Decision (Unanimous) Ascension 309 2015-03-19 205 3 05:00 view L Constrictor Boa Submission (Armbar) Ascension 306 2015-02-22 205 1 03:59 view L Bartholomew Roach Decision (Unanimous) NYFN 30 : Jacobs vs Roach 2015-01-31 205 3 05:00 view W Bobby Lee Daniels Decision (Unanimous) Ascension end of year 2015-01-01 205 3 05:00 view L Leonidas Katsaros KO (Superman Punch) Ascension 92 2014-12-07 205 2 02:34 view L Miguel Camacho TKO (Punches) http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/tinybelt.gif Ascension 90 2014-11-23 205 1 03:35 view

 

 

Temel: before the changes

 

W Alexander Blaze TKO (Strikes) Syn 327 2014-11-14 170 1 03:07 view W Oisin O Conghaile Submission (Kimura)http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/tinyaward.jpg Syn 325 2014-10-31 185 1 04:56 view L Lucas Bishop TKO (Strikes) Syn' 322: Curtain Call 2014-10-15 185 3 02:58 view W Semmy Kasteel Submission (Armbar) Syn 320 2014-10-03 185 1 03:40 view W Hironobu Uematsu TKO (Strikes) Heroic 173:Finale 2014-09-03 185 3 01:19 view W Peter Cabreros Decision (Unanimous) Heroic 170 2014-08-15 170 3 05:00 view W Luke Skywalker Submission (Strikes) Heroic 166: Rainer vs Lester 2014-07-18 170 3 04:34 view W Kenji Okabe Decision (Unanimous) Heroic 164:New Era 2014-07-06 170 3 05:00 view

 

 

Temel: after the changes

 

Opponent Method Event Date W/C Rnd Time W Michael Ehrmantraut KO (Punch) Syn 345 - Final Straw 2015-03-20 170 1 01:14 view L Eiji Kawashima Decision (Split) Syn 337 2015-01-23 170 3 05:00 view L Hugo Valderena Decision (Unanimous) Syn 335 Olympics Round 2 2015-01-09 170 3 05:00 view L Santiago Colon KO (Punch) Syn 331 2014-12-12 170 3 00:23 view

 

 

I have a few others who have went on similar skids but don't want to post too much shit & I only posted fights once I moved to the top level, cause they're the only fights that matter to me anyway.

 

It's fighters at the highest level of skill where you want to see how these changes take affect..

 

1. Slightly reduce the energy loss from shoot takedowns (increase on a scale after that, with a reset after each round)

2. Slight increase the effectiness of counter takedowns (been nerfed too much)

3. Decrease the amount of ref stand ups

4. Slightly increase GnP landing rate

5. Massively increase the effectiness of escapes (however you don't need escapes to defend them, meaning grapplers don't need yet another skill to compete)

6. Make entering and exiting clinch much easier (they are worse than takedowns)

7. Don't touch the accuracy of elbows or knees (they land at a fine rate now)

8. Do not do anything at all with skill caps or add even higher levels of skills

9. Slightly increase the advantage between elite and sensational and sensational and exceptional

 

 

*Edit - JLP is right the CTD era has been the most fun as it really opened up the range of slider settings you could use

 

 

I like all of these changes but I really think that we need a pretty massive increase to the amount of activity that gets done on the ground. My fear is that if we boost GNP % from guard and half-guard and maintain the level of activity that there is now on the ground (where it seems like 3-4 gnp strikes are thrown per min) we're going to just go the other way & not be able to get fights off the ground. I think we need that increase in GNP % landed from guard and half-guard though for sure. I think we should really drastically increase the activity on the ground & also increase the # of moves before the referee looks for a stand-up.

 

So for example if it's currently every 6 moves, it should be every 10-12 moves. If it's currently every 10 moves, it should be every 15 moves. All of these changes IMO go hand in hand. If we're able to land a higher % of GNP and still only have 5 moves per min, fights are going to stay on the ground for half a round on almost every TD attempt. If we increase the activity, the fights will stay down longer (activity wise) but not necessarily always in terms of minutes per round

[shortfuse122829]

Which btw are the same changes I've been calling for since the last fight engine thread 2 yrs ago

 

http://www.mmatycoon.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=35210&p=470436

 

http://www.mmatycoon.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=35210&p=470976

 

http://www.mmatycoon.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=35210&p=470978

[Mentor]

I'm not sure if I make sense or what but why not staggered energy loss for failed take down attempts? For example, first failed takedown attempt you lose 1% then 2nd you lose 3% and so on.

 

This is a better idea actually than simply lowering energy loss for wrestlers.

[Marky]

I'd welcome changes now rather than later. Whatever they are decided to be.

[Kronix]

About the discussion of raising the skillpoints to 20, I can't see if anyone has brought up the point that fighters would have to continue to train. What would the 30+ aged fighters do? They can barely learn anything as it is. Raising the skill levels would be the death of those guys. Maybe not at first, but how long would it take for the young guns to surpass them? To me, it doesn't seem like a good path to go although I do understand the request for more diversity in builds.

[Rambo]

Don't raise the skill cap. Completely unnecessary.

 

 

 

Personally, I thought the CTD era was pretty fucking lame. You could have useless TD's and still land them at a high rate. That shit was retarded. I also think this predict your opponents sliders shit is really unnecessary too.

[shortfuse122829]

Don't raise the skill cap. Completely unnecessary.

 

 

 

Personally, I thought the CTD era was pretty fucking lame. You could have useless TD's and still land them at a high rate. That shit was retarded. I also think this predict your opponents sliders shit is really unnecessary too.

 

 

I agree that part of it was pretty fucking lame. But that engine was definitely the most balanced as far as strikers vs. grapplers, for years this game was more like kick-boxing tycoon instead of MMA tycoon. I would THINK there should be a way to make wrestling more effective without having that stupid crap again though. I would hope anyway

[Timmy]

A point about testing on The Island (since it has come up):

 

When The Island first started I assumed that any fighters made there (and any companies/orgs) would never leave and join the main game. I assumed that they were for The Island and that's that, that they auto-retire when the Island is over (not even going FA). Now that people are talking about testing changes on The Island, I'm wishing that my assumption had been correct, because if it were like that, this would allow the possibility of starting with 1800 skill points or something (Island training being only a top-up). That would allow all kinds of builds at mid-level and a perfect environment for testing potential engine changes every year.

 

Edit: Also, because no money/companies/orgs/fighters leave the Island, it would be great to turn everything into a competition. Prizes for winning fighters at the end of course - Plus - top-hyped org, top hyped-cloth, top hyped-supps, even best-earning gym. Each coming with a cash/VIP/whatever prize of Mike's choice and a gold, silver or bronze trophy for every manger with a fighter or company in the top 3. More fun than fighting dreary 18 yr olds - You can do that easilly enough in the main game or QFC tournies.

[Scooby]

I dont see whats so bad about reducing referee standups a bit now and then do our 6month testing plan and all this other shit.

[poraan]

How many times you have seen fight where is really happening something and referee stands up? Referee standup isnt problem, problem is engine that makes fighters to do nothing on the ground.

 

 

http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/takedown.gif
Reyes shoots in and scores a nice double leg takedown into half guard.
Wooooo! Give it up for these two warriors! They are putting on a show!
Reyes seems very keen to just sit and control from half guard but Takala does not like that idea so much and is remaining active off his back.
http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/2.gif
That's two minutes gone in the round.
Takala tries to get to full guard but Reyes has control of the leg.
Reyes lands with an elbow from half guard - that looked like it hurt.
Reyes stalling away here and it's allowed Takala to slip out his trapped foot and regain full guard.
http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/3.gif
That's three minutes gone in the round.
Reyes stands up and looks to throw the legs aside to pass to side control. Takala swivels though and keeps the full guard.
Takala avoiding any damage from the ground and pound.
A big thud reverberates around the arena there as Reyes accidentally thumps the mat. Hopefully he's not broken his hand.
Reyes is looking to work some ground and pound but Takala has wrist control.
We must be close to a standup if these guys don't pick up the pace.
http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/4.gif
That's four minutes gone in the round.
The crowd are showing their displeasure at the lack of action as loud boos ring out around the arena.
Reyes in full guard, throwing the ground and pound. No damage this time.
http://www.mmatycoon.com/images/fight/refstandup3.gif

 

 

 

[Rambo]

 

 

I agree that part of it was pretty fucking lame. But that engine was definitely the most balanced as far as strikers vs. grapplers, for years this game was more like kick-boxing tycoon instead of MMA tycoon. I would THINK there should be a way to make wrestling more effective without having that stupid crap again though. I would hope anyway

 

I had very little issues with my grapplers pre-counter TD era. Yeah it definitely could of used improvement - every department in this game could use improvement - but it wasn't that bad to where it give it an okay for fighters with useless TD off to land high % of TD's.

 

Kickboxing Tycoon - it's just easier to create strikers and much, much, quicker. If fights started on the ground, I'm sure we would of seen 10 times as many grapplers as strikers. That's just the nature of the game. 100% counter TD era was trash. Made it seem more realistic, but it was still nonsense. I frequently had CTD's with fighters that had no TD offence.

[MMATycoon]

Last night lying in bed I came up with what I think is a pretty great idea to bring escapes into play.

 

In real life, I believe probably 50% of escapes come straight off a takedown. Sometimes you'd call it a scramble from an unsuccessful takedown attempt but often, the takedown is a success but then the opposing fighter works immediately to escape and does so successfully.

 

So I think it would be a really good idea to add an additional process into takedowns, so we have an "escape check" immediately after each one. So a totally seperate process to the standard ground move and solely checking whether the taken down fighter escapes back to his feet.

 

We're wanting the game to be a lot more transitionary in terms of into and out of the clinch and to / from the ground, so I think this will work really well. We would obviously need to consider making changes to the success of initial takedowns to perhaps bump those up a bit but I think this is definitely a great solution for making escapes mean something....

 

Of course, additionally we can and will work on making them work better on the ground in general too, to pre-empt that point

[GBK16]

I think having Escapes be useful after suffering a takedown would be a good idea. Add in it's effectiveness at potentially allowing a fighter to escape to standing after an opponents unsuccessful Submission, dunno how it would work with GnP since there should be more GnP than Sub attempts if you compare.

[jeaston]

Last night lying in bed I came up with what I think is a pretty great idea to bring escapes into play.

 

In real life, I believe probably 50% of escapes come straight off a takedown. Sometimes you'd call it a scramble from an unsuccessful takedown attempt but often, the takedown is a success but then the opposing fighter works immediately to escape and does so successfully.

 

So I think it would be a really good idea to add an additional process into takedowns, so we have an "escape check" immediately after each one. So a totally seperate process to the standard ground move and solely checking whether the taken down fighter escapes back to his feet.

 

We're wanting the game to be a lot more transitionary in terms of into and out of the clinch and to / from the ground, so I think this will work really well. We would obviously need to consider making changes to the success of initial takedowns to perhaps bump those up a bit but I think this is definitely a great solution for making escapes mean something....

 

Of course, additionally we can and will work on making them work better on the ground in general too, to pre-empt that point

I like that a lot. If you implemented that idea, escapes might actually mean something if you don't want to get taken down. I just hope the check wouldn't be too op'd.

[gwad12345]

Last night lying in bed I came up with what I think is a pretty great idea to bring escapes into play.

 

In real life, I believe probably 50% of escapes come straight off a takedown. Sometimes you'd call it a scramble from an unsuccessful takedown attempt but often, the takedown is a success but then the opposing fighter works immediately to escape and does so successfully.

 

So I think it would be a really good idea to add an additional process into takedowns, so we have an "escape check" immediately after each one. So a totally seperate process to the standard ground move and solely checking whether the taken down fighter escapes back to his feet.

 

We're wanting the game to be a lot more transitionary in terms of into and out of the clinch and to / from the ground, so I think this will work really well. We would obviously need to consider making changes to the success of initial takedowns to perhaps bump those up a bit but I think this is definitely a great solution for making escapes mean something....

 

Of course, additionally we can and will work on making them work better on the ground in general too, to pre-empt that point

Yes that would be a good way to make the game more realistic. Of course it goes without saying that in return the ground game would need a massive (slight exaggeration) bump in some respect to compensate.

[UniConor]

Last night lying in bed

Stop right there mister, that's all I need to know!

 

So if I have 12 TDD and 12 escapes. That makes me doubley hard to take down and keep down? I suppose thats cool.

 

But how about these slick BJJ kids who when they get taken down, roll and end up in a dominant position. Could there be an alternative for transitions, you get taken down, and you roll them over or whatever?

[handgrenaide]

Don't raise the skill cap. Completely unnecessary.

 

 

 

Personally, I thought the CTD era was pretty fucking lame. You could have useless TD's and still land them at a high rate. That shit was retarded. I also think this predict your opponents sliders shit is really unnecessary too.

100% agreed

 

 

Stop right there mister, that's all I need to know!

 

So if I have 12 TDD and 12 escapes. That makes me doubley hard to take down and keep down? I suppose thats cool.

 

But how about these slick BJJ kids who when they get taken down, roll and end up in a dominant position. Could there be an alternative for transitions, you get taken down, and you roll them over or whatever?

escapes should cause scrambles where the fighter may end up in a dominant position

[DavyJones]

Last night lying in bed I came up with what I think is a pretty great idea to bring escapes into play.

 

In real life, I believe probably 50% of escapes come straight off a takedown. Sometimes you'd call it a scramble from an unsuccessful takedown attempt but often, the takedown is a success but then the opposing fighter works immediately to escape and does so successfully.

 

So I think it would be a really good idea to add an additional process into takedowns, so we have an "escape check" immediately after each one. So a totally seperate process to the standard ground move and solely checking whether the taken down fighter escapes back to his feet.

 

We're wanting the game to be a lot more transitionary in terms of into and out of the clinch and to / from the ground, so I think this will work really well. We would obviously need to consider making changes to the success of initial takedowns to perhaps bump those up a bit but I think this is definitely a great solution for making escapes mean something....

 

Of course, additionally we can and will work on making them work better on the ground in general too, to pre-empt that point

 

This is a brilliant idea, too bad I already sacked all my fighters that I had given escapes during the respec LOL! I don't think I have anyone left with escapes. I still love the idea though.

[Wolf]

I like that idea Mike, but it would mean you need to make takedowns more likely to be successful if there is a chance for the fighter to get back up. Imagine going 1 to 10 on takedowns but the one you do get the fighter manages to scramble out of it

[poraan]

Last night lying in bed I came up with what I think is a pretty great idea to bring escapes into play.

 

In real life, I believe probably 50% of escapes come straight off a takedown. Sometimes you'd call it a scramble from an unsuccessful takedown attempt but often, the takedown is a success but then the opposing fighter works immediately to escape and does so successfully.

 

So I think it would be a really good idea to add an additional process into takedowns, so we have an "escape check" immediately after each one. So a totally seperate process to the standard ground move and solely checking whether the taken down fighter escapes back to his feet.

 

We're wanting the game to be a lot more transitionary in terms of into and out of the clinch and to / from the ground, so I think this will work really well. We would obviously need to consider making changes to the success of initial takedowns to perhaps bump those up a bit but I think this is definitely a great solution for making escapes mean something....

 

Of course, additionally we can and will work on making them work better on the ground in general too, to pre-empt that point

We need also "standup check". Everytime when fighter sweeps to top position, he could try to standup instantly.

[Rain]

I also think it would be a good time for Mike to have a separate skill cap for physicals. I've brought it up before and I know he likes the idea. Random limits can be assigned to each physical for a fighter upon creation. More hiddens can be added to give a bonus to the cap of each physical, like "Naturally strong" gets you +25 to your strength cap. Or a "good athlete" gets you +5 to all physicals.

 

 

That is great! This way you could have fighters with not elite (150) but (175) cardio, which starts making fighters different, like in real life. Or for example not everybody has the KO Power of OSP, and that would differ if someone had 175 strenght.

[FallenFlyer]

Last night lying in bed I came up with what I think is a pretty great idea to bring escapes into play.

 

In real life, I believe probably 50% of escapes come straight off a takedown. Sometimes you'd call it a scramble from an unsuccessful takedown attempt but often, the takedown is a success but then the opposing fighter works immediately to escape and does so successfully.

 

So I think it would be a really good idea to add an additional process into takedowns, so we have an "escape check" immediately after each one. So a totally seperate process to the standard ground move and solely checking whether the taken down fighter escapes back to his feet.

 

We're wanting the game to be a lot more transitionary in terms of into and out of the clinch and to / from the ground, so I think this will work really well. We would obviously need to consider making changes to the success of initial takedowns to perhaps bump those up a bit but I think this is definitely a great solution for making escapes mean something....

 

Of course, additionally we can and will work on making them work better on the ground in general too, to pre-empt that point

 

That makes so much sense.

[MMATycoon]

I would like to bring in a separate cap for total physicals but it'd be extremely difficult to implement... plus, if you are going for a physical beast then you definitively are leaving yourself open in other areas.